Charlotte - Pre-Release Discussion & Speculation

[sillylittlemelody]

The mistake was the fast pacing. If you consider that Charlotte will have more side characters than Angel Beats!, obviously there will be more story, and compressing it in 13 episodes is committing the same mistake.

[Takafumi]

If you consider that Charlotte will have more side characters than Angel Beats!, obviously there will be more story

No no no, those two things don’t fit together.

First off, we don’t know what constitutes as a side character in AB. Are the battlefront members considered main characters or side characters? Is it selective based on what characters were developed?
To me, AB is a story with a large amount of neglected main characters, and that is one reason why it failed so badly. It set up an arc-styled story that’d explore all of the battlefront members, and then said “oh, while the protag was doing this, those other characters had their own things going on. We just won’t tell you about them.”

Secondly, a side character does not mean more story. Side characters are used to explain traits of main characters, or to move the plot forward. They generally don’t get much in the way of development beyond experiencing the events the main cast goes through. A side character progresses the story without adding needless content.

Saying “more side characters than Angel Beats!” could mean few side characters or plenty. Side characters don’t equal story length.

Besides, you don’t compress a story to 13 episodes if it is designed for 13 episodes.

[sillylittlemelody]

First off, we don’t know what constitutes as a side character in AB.

Yes, that’s true. I agree with that.

No no no, those two things don’t fit together.

Secondly, a side character does not mean more story. Side characters are used to explain traits of main characters, or to move the plot forward. They generally don’t get much in the way of development beyond experiencing the events the main cast goes through. A side character progresses the story without adding needless content.

If by “side characters” he means characters like Kyou, Kappei, Mei, Sasami and Sayuri, then although they do explain traits of main characters they also have their own stories and development. Like a “minor route” if it was a visual novel.

But it’s true that we don’t know what he means by “side characters”. It all depends on this concept.

[Yerian]

Well, especially since they said “Will have more side characters than Angel Beats!, but will only focus on the main four.” Thats why you can say the number of side characters won’t affect the episode length:

Angel Beats! & Charlotte news from Visualstyle and Dengeki G's magazines

This time, the story will only focus on 4 main characters, two of which are our male protagonist Yuu Otosaka, and our heroine Nao Tomori.

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[quote=“Takafumi, post:282, topic:728”]
Besides, you don’t compress a story to 13 episodes if it is designed for 13 episodes.
[/quote]Angel Beats! wasn’t designed for 13 episodes though…:

Angel Beats! & Charlotte news from Visualstyle and Dengeki G's magazines

Angel Beats! was never able to take the time to develop individual characters’ stories, always jumping from one to another at a rapid pace, and many cuts had to be made to fit the story within 13 episodes.

And really from the way they’re describing it, Charlotte probably isn’t either:

Angel Beats! & Charlotte news from Visualstyle and Dengeki G's magazines

As opposed to Angel Beats! which had a very flashy and fast-paced beginning, Charlotte will start off slow and ease into the plot gradually.

[sillylittlemelody]

Well, especially since they said “Will have more side characters than Angel Beats!, but will only focus on the main four.” Thats why you can say the number of side characters won’t affect the episode length:

Saying they’re going to focus only on the main four doesn’t necessarily mean there can’t be a little development of the side characters. Also because, their goal as the student council is to help people, so you may expect backstories or troubles the side characters face and ask them help.

[Takafumi]

If by “side characters” he means characters like Kyou, Kappei, Mei, Sasami and Sayuri

Kyou was a route heroine of a decently long route. Kappei was a route hero of a decently long route. Mei was too (alongside her brother.) Sasami was a route heroine.

I’d say Sayuri is the only side-character there, and even she got a mini route.

Angel Beats! wasn’t designed for 13 episodes though…:

I never said it was.

And really from the way they’re describing it, Charlotte probably isn’t either:

Isn’t that how almost all anime start? Most stories in fact.

Also because, their goal as the student council is to help people, so you may expect backstories or troubles the side characters face and ask them help.

Then it’d probably be the typical “here’s a challenge for the main cast. Let’s see them grow and solve the challenge” for that episode. Sure we’d get side characters, but really they’d just be like the guy who was crushing on Sasami - a plot device.

[Yerian]

I never said it was.

My bad, I thought thats what you were implying with this:

The mistake wasn’t the episode count, it was the overall direction and the way in which episodes were treated.

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[quote=“Takafumi, post:286, topic:728”]
Isn’t that how almost all anime start? Most stories in fact.
[/quote]You have a point (though honestly I don’t remember feeling like Angel Beats! started that fast-paced). I’m just saying I just kinda get the feeling like they’re implying its going to longer. Just about all of Key’s main titles can’t (or shouldn’t be crammed into 13 episodes anyways. And I will admit a part of it is just me really hoping that it won’t only be 13 ep.

[quote=“Takafumi, post:286, topic:728”]
Then it’d probably be the typical “here’s a challenge for the main cast. Let’s see them grow and solve the challenge” for that episode. Sure we’d get side characters, but really they’d just be like the guy who was crushing on Sasami - a plot device.
[/quote]Yes, this will probably be true. Side characters will most certainly be developed, as that seems to be the loose plot description we’ve been given. The main four have taken up the task of assisting struggling students (whether they have been told this is what they have to do, or it is by their own volition).
But the story is about them helping the side characters, not the side characters being helped (if that makes any sense). The number of side characters is kinda irrelevant in terms of how long it takes the main cast to be developed sufficiently.

And, Angel Beast! pacing mistake was not only in the fact that the characters didnt get developed, but also that the “deeper meaning, underlying, overarching plot line” got mauled and ended up basically just being a tease.

[Pepe]

The problem with all of our arguing lies in one main issue:

as Maeda said he didn’t want to commit the same mistake of Angel Beats!

But we all have our own perception on what is the mistake of AB. Like, if I were to continue the discussion, I would argue about how AB introduced a sudden mysterious “programmer” with the ability to modify the world and of course with that kind of character I would need to see more episodes, so with Charlotte they shouldn’t introduce that sort of character at all…

But I won’t (even though I already did). So let’s stop and think for a while at what Jun Maeda thought was the mistake of Angel Beats. The way I see it, his issue is that he designed a large story and had to cut a lot of stuff to make it more anime-appropriate. Even the music, from what I hear. So I feel that is the mistake that he thinks he made. In that case then I think what he would plan to do now is create the story with an anime in mind to begin with? Like, he would take into account the fact that it’s only 20 minutes per episode, and that there should be some sort of linearity between them?

In that case, the issue of episode count would only be dependent, as @Takafumi said, on the overall direction and the way in which they are treated. Of course, there is still some fear of it being too short, as I have voiced my worries on this:

We now know that it isn’t a normal school setting at all, and that drummer might just have special abilities as well that would contribute to their own backstory. But since she’s a minor character, they wouldn’t do that. That might leave us fans in the dark when it comes to all the other characters, which is one of the problems that came about from the Angel Beats anime.

So I guess it really depends on how they show those powers. X-Men has a bunch of characters, all with their own powers, but we aren’t concerned with most of their backstories, now are we?

[Zak89]

Just have some time for that Maeda’s radio and it seem they talked about several propositions for Charlotte title including the aforementioned AA and well,it’s a good thing they choose the current title.

[Bizkitdoh]

Yeah, she’s Yuri wwwwwwwwwwww

[sillylittlemelody]

Kyou was a route heroine of a decently long route. Kappei was a route hero of a decently long route. Mei was too (alongside her brother.) Sasami was a route heroine.

I’d say Sayuri is the only side-character there, and even she got a mini route.

Ryou (sorry, I meant her, since Kyou is a main heroine), Kappei, Mei and Sasami (at least in the original LB!) are not considered main characters, even if they have their own route. This is my point: if characters that are not main can have their own routes, why couldn’t the same happen in Charlotte?

Sure we’d get side characters, but really they’d just be like the guy who was crushing on Sasami - a plot device.

I don’t think so. If they were like this guy, I think Maeda wouldn’t even bother mentioning.

But the story is about them helping the side characters, not the side characters being helped (if that makes any sense). The number of side characters is kinda irrelevant in terms of how long it takes the main cast to be developed sufficiently.

I get what you mean, but we both know that Key stories usually don’t work like that. Help and be helped. It’s a mutual relation. Like LB!, the main plot is about Riki becoming stronger, but to do this he needs to grant the heroines’ wishes. Both parts are helped. The story is about Riki becoming stronger, but at some parts the focus is on each heroines’ wishes being granted .

[Yerian]

Like LB!, the main plot is about Riki becoming stronger, but to do this he needs to grant the heroines’ wishes. Both parts are helped. The story is about Riki becoming stronger, but at some parts the focus is on each heroines’ wishes being granted .

Ok, yeah but (Little Busters)1) The reader didnt even know that either of those were the main points until the very end, and 2) Thats not entirely correct. Riki growing stronger was just another regret: it was arguably just as important to the story as the other heroine’s regrets.

[quote=“sillylittlemelody, post:291, topic:728”]
Ryou (sorry, I meant her, since Kyou is a main heroine), Kappei, Mei and Sasami (at least in the original LB!) are not considered main characters, even if they have their own route. This is my point: if characters that are not main can have their own routes, why couldn’t the same happen in Charlotte?
[/quote]Ok so I think part of the problem is whether you think about this in terms of the anime, or the VN. In the anime, sure, all four of those are side character (Kappei wasnt even included). And in the anime, the majority of the SSS could be considered side characters. But in the VNs, Ryou, Kappei, Mei, Sasami and anyone else with a route (well, maybe not Koumura) is a main character. Tomoyo’s route is just as important as Mei’s, and Sasami’s is just as important as Haruka’s. And, in the AB VN, ALL of the SSS will be main characters.

What Im getting at, though, is Charlotte is an anime. If I had to guess, I would say the side characters in Charlotte will be just as important to the story over as all as most of the SSS is in the Angel Beats anime, if not less.

[sillylittlemelody]

Ok so I think part of the problem is whether you think about this in terms of the anime, or the VN. In the anime, sure, all four of those are side character (Kappei wasnt even included). And in the anime, the majority of the SSS could be considered side characters. But in the VNs, Ryou, Kappei, Mei, Sasami and anyone else with a route (well, maybe not Koumura) is a main character. Tomoyo’s route is just as important as Mei’s, and Sasami’s is just as important as Haruka’s. And, in the AB VN, ALL of the SSS will be main characters.

What Im getting at, though, is Charlotte is an anime. If I had to guess, I would say the side characters in Charlotte will be just as important to the story over as all as most of the SSS is in the Angel Beats anime, if not less.

You got my point. Then, we can conclude that is reasonable that Charlotte will have more episodes than AB!, at least 26.

2) Thats not entirely correct. Riki growing stronger was just another regret: it was arguably just as important to the story as the other heroine’s regrets.

No, it wasn’t just another regret. Actually, it’s totally different from the heroines’ regrets. They had dreams that they couldn’t accomplish anymore, since they were going to die, and they wanted to fulfill them. The whole game is a mission to make Riki and Rin stronger in order to survive and face the big pain of loss of all their friends.

[Takafumi]

Ok, yeah but (Little Busters)1) The reader didnt even know that either of those were the main points until the very end, and 2) Thats not entirely correct. Riki growing stronger was just another regret: it was arguably just as important to the story as the other heroine’s regrets.

Riki going stronger was one of the main plotlines. It could be considered the main story of the VN. That’s one of the two reasons why the fake world was created. The heroine routes individually weren’t equal to it. Riki + Rin growing stronger was an equal priority to all of the other characters’ regrets combined. Riki’s regret was the car crash stuff, hence the narcolepsy. Him needing to be stronger wasn’t a regret.

I would say the side characters in Charlotte will be just as important to the story over as all as most of the SSS is in the Angel Beats anime

So… not very?

You got my point. Then, we can conclude that is reasonable that Charlotte will have more episodes than AB!, at least 26.

I’m still not sure where you are getting this idea from. It could work with 11-13 episodes if that was how it was planned. It could work with 24 or 25 episodes if that was how it was planned.

The problem with AB wasn’t the story length, it was the direction. Maeda didn’t know about writing for anime, so he tried to get too many ideas in. For some reason the anime director agreed with Maeda, and he created a flawed storyboard that somehow got past everyone else working on it.
AB could have fit into 13 episodes, if they understood the scope of the story and the limits of 13 episodes. Neither Maeda or PA understood this.

[Yerian]

In response to your spoilered stuff:

1) Riki and Rin not being strong enough to survive without the Little Busters was the regret of three of the eight, so yeah, you can say its more important than the rest. Its one of the six reasons the fake world was created. 2) Riki and Rin didn’t originally have a regret, or more specifically, they had no part in the creation of the world until the end of Refrain.

[quote=“Takafumi, post:294, topic:728”]
So… not very?
[/quote]Yeah, thats kinda what I’m guessing.

[quote=“Takafumi, post:294, topic:728”]
AB could have fit into 13 episodes, if they understood the scope of the story and the limits of 13 episodes.
[/quote]Angel Beats was originally planned for 26 ep, then got cut. It could have worked as 13 ep, but it would have been a completely different story, and not probably very amazing at all.

I don’t know, I might be the only one, but I’m almost happy they screwed the anime up in the way that they did. Because then they had a extremely incomplete story, which Maeda wanted to complete, and the fan wanted to be completed, and now we get a huge VN that can encompass a story larger and more complex and more incredible than any anime version could be.

[sillylittlemelody]

I’m still not sure where you are getting this idea from. It could work with 11-13 episodes if that was how it was planned. It could work with 24 or 25 episodes if that was how it was planned.

The problem with AB wasn’t the story length, it was the direction. Maeda didn’t know about writing for anime, so he tried to get too many ideas in. For some reason the anime director agreed with Maeda, and he created a flawed storyboard that somehow got past everyone else working on it.
AB could have fit into 13 episodes, if they understood the scope of the story and the limits of 13 episodes. Neither Maeda or PA understood this.

Guess Maeda has improved now, then. About the episode length: Maeda has wrote 4 visual novels (5 if you count Tomoyo After). He also wrote AB! that was an anime but had a visual novel structure. (When I say visual novel structure I mean some character-centric plots that fit together somehow).

Assuming Charlotte will have the same structure, then the side characters can count as a factor to increase the number of episodes. Charlotte has 4 main characters and I don’t think they are the only characters that will have their own arcs, instead of it, I just think they are the focus of the big plot that’s behind the story.

All that I say is based on the hypothesis that Charlotte will be structured like all Key previous works: small (but reasonable) character arcs and a MAIN PLOT behind the whole narrative.

[Takafumi]

Angel Beats was originally planned for 26 ep, then got cut.

I’m pretty sure that’s just a false rumor people use to defend AB’s credibility and explain the massive cuts. IIRC it was planned as a 13 episode anime with extra content in the form of drama CDs and Manga. It just wasn’t planned very well.

It could have worked as 13 ep, but it would have been a completely different story, and not probably very amazing at all.

So you are saying that if AB was planned for 13 episodes, it’d be “not probably very amazing at all” in contrast to the butchered story we did get? I don’t see how it could have been worse really… I mean, at least we would have got a coherent story, instead of getting fragments of one.

You can only use this argument with 24-26 episode anime. Saying a butchered 13 episode anime could have worked as a non-butchered 13 episode anime makes no sense from a debate standpoint…

All that I say is based on the hypothesis that Charlotte will be structured like all Key previous works: small (but reasonable) character arcs and a MAIN PLOT behind the whole narrative.

Of course, that’s how I guess it’ll end up. An episode or two dedicated to a problem, a main character develops through it. Follow it with another arc and another arc, and then around episode 10 it’ll go full main story mode.
That’s how most VN-inspired anime end up, and it’s pretty much a spin-off of the formula Key pioneered.

[sillylittlemelody]

You forgot about the main-but-not-very-main-plot episodes, like the baseball in LB! and the drama club in CLANNAD. There are also the trivia episodes

[Pepe]

While he did say it would be a regular Key story, that doesn’t mean that there are guarantee that there are going to be arcs and neither does it guarantee that if there are arcs, each of the 4 main cast will have their own

I’m still of the opinion that it can be good as 13 episodes and it can also be good as 26 and it can also be good as 52. But my point being that the “mistake” that they referred to when producing angel beats was not solely the episode count. They could have made Angel Beats as 26 episodes and it’d still be lackluster. Which is why I wanted to try and approach that issue from Maeda’s perspective

What I’m trying to say is I won’t hold any expectations in terms of episode count only for it to be shattered later on

So you are saying that if AB was planned for 13 episodes, it’d be “not probably very amazing at all” in contrast to the butchered story we did get? I don’t see how it could have been worse really… I mean, at least we would have got a coherent story, instead of getting fragments of one.

I think what he means by “amazing” is that it has immense story potential. A short and sweet story would be “amazing” in an informal sense (very impressive; excellent) but it wouldn’t be “amazing” in a literal sense (causing great surprise or wonder; astonishing)

[Yerian]

I’m still of the opinion that it can be good as 13 episodes and it can also be good as 26 and it can also be good as 52

What I’m trying to say is I won’t hold any expectations in terms of episode count only for it to be shattered later on

See, I’m sure if they write it to be great and complete in 12-13 episodes, it will be great in 12-13 episodes. But when something is really good, I don’t want it to end that quickly! I want more! Which is why I would love for it to be in the 24-26 range. But I certainly also wouldn’t want it to drag on. So if its meant to be one cour, let it be one cour and I will be satisfied.