[quote=“Takafumi, post:161, topic:401”]
What’s your opinion on the Satako CG controversy that’s been going around with the Steam release of Higurashi? If you know that there was controversy at all.
[/quote]I haven’t read any of the Higurashi novels except the MangaGamer release of the first one, Onikakushi. I don’t own a Steam account either, so I don’t really know anything about that.
Actually, there is an all-ages patch for Air. Our BASED Takafumi made it for us, heres the link to the thread/guide. A list of all AIR Visual Novel patches and how to install them!
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Somebody already directed me to the patch, but thank you anyways. :3
Ah, I haven’t read the entirety of this topic. So forgive me if this is already well tread ground. But from what I have read there’s at least some stuff I’d like to make sure is brought up. (Also of note I won’t be talking about sensible business practises when it comes to the use of H-scenes, since well, it’s not really something I can comment on)
First off is this idea that explict sex doesn’t have a meaningful place in media? Or that media disgraces it or something? Which is really kinda weird to me. Like, there’s alot to sex. Not just in the variations in experiences you can have, but in like the ways it can be shown, explicitly, in media and just be kinda awesome? Like just fading out or ‘porning’ sex really dehumanizes sex into this weird fantastical or endlessly special thing. Which is… Pretty fucked up? Like even if you consider sex to be this special thing, I don’t think you’d want media to black it out as this THING WHICH WE CAN’T EXPLORE OR SHOW MEANINGFULLY. Like you’d still want it to be treated humanly, with a large variety of expression in it. (No I don’t mean dick jokes)
Now I’m not saying the other viewpoint either, that absolutely every VN has important sex scenes, since it’s clear that alot of the ones I myself have read with them haven’t. Off the top of my head the only ones I’ve read with them that have sex scenes of ‘value’ are like Saya no Uta (Since they’re horrifying, despicable, disgusting, but that’s the point), Cross Channel (Same point as previous. Sorta), Swan Song (I don’t like how Swan Song did them, and certainly not all of them were needed, but to say none of them were of value would be pretty wrong), Muv Luv series (Pretty weak but what they did with ‘stock’ scenes was kinda cool, even if I’m blegh with them. EDIT: Though one scene in Alternative is the worst thing ever due to how they framed it.).
But that’s just me mainly having read Key works and a few others. Even just a regular romance VN, or any media, can have cool sex scenes. They don’t need to further plot, or give deep character development, or be the peak of the relationship either. They can just be there and be relationshippy or clunky or any number of things. Just having sex scenes that aren’t just porn, or shock is of value.
And there’s some amazing shows I’ve seen like Yuri Kuma Arashi and Lupin the Third: The Woman Called Fujiko Mine. Both are undeniable explorations of sexuality, both would not be possible without being how explicit they are. Whether that means some people won’t watch them because of it, that’s cool, but they are what they are. And that kind of exploration is, well, important and rare? You can’t depict sexuality whilst always running away from depicting sex. You’d simply only be exploring certain parts of it at the neglect of everything else. There is no reason a visual novel can’t, and doesn’t they almost certainly do exist, do something as amazing as that.
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I think H-scenes created a vicious cycle that limits the VN market.
VN companies aren’t interested in expanding their market nowadays. Basically, with prior publishing and marketing, they compete each other’s markets. VNs are expensive, so normally people buy just one per month. What a company wants is to be above the others in sales. I don’t know if this is related to that, but this month, there were very few VN releases compared to the previous months. Perhaps this is due to AB’s release, and that competing against it is almost worthless.
Anyway, the VN market nowadays is very limited. VNs with many H-scenes or nukiges, are “safer” to sell. VNs started with H in mind, and since then they couldn’t get themselves free from it. If a company (with a few exceptions) release an all-ages VN, it has a low chance of success. Why? Because the market is already composed of people looking for H. People who don’t like those stuff are already outside the market.
Now, Key and some other few companies are different. I think Key has done a great job by taking off the H. They began releasing all-ages PC versions, that aren’t common, even now. Then they released VNs with no H content at all, that were immensely successful. They proved that VNs don’t need H-scenes to be successful. Key helped some other companies do the same, but the cycle still remains. People aren’t afraid of buying Key all-ages VNs, because Key is Key. Key makes great stories. Now if an average moege company, for example, dares to do this it may not be very successful. H is a big part of why fans buy those games, so taking it off can take what a lot of people like about it.
We have had, though some good improvements in the subject. Frontwing, for example, has announced an all-ages game with only a patch to unlock the H. Frontwing has been being really famous for Grisaia, so they can trust on their fame. I just hope more companies do the same.
In my opinion, it is sad that VNs started with H in mind. VN is a storytelling medium worth being explored and capable of creating lots of good experiences. Anime, manga and LNs were born differently, luckily. They have a lot of all-ages content, and the hentai only in true hentai for hentai fans. I wish VNs were like this too, the market could grow a lot with it. But this vicious cycle is a barrier that I think won’t break very soon. But it’ll break someday, hopefully…
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This is perhaps a little off topic, but have you seen Kanashimi no Belladonna, Kaiba, Lupin the Third: The Woman called Fujiko Mine or Mindgame? I’m asking, not because I find what you’re saying to be wrong, but I think they’re good examples that question the ‘anime has hentai only in true hentai for hentai fans’ since those three shows have graphic depictions of sex, stuff you maybe could consider being hentai, without ‘just’ being porn?
So I think the idea that H intrinsically subtracts from visual novels as being a bit =Sy, since you can - at least I believe so - use those kinds of scenes really well. (Though it is a shame about lesser all-ages versions)
No, I haven’t seen those shows. But they are minority. Most animes have no H content.
I just don’t like the fact that most VNs have to rely on H to sell. This detracts the market from expanding itself, both in number and varieties.
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I skimmed over some of the previous posts, but since there’s over a hundred posts before this, I definitely can’t try to respond or jump in. So i’ll just begin with the original question: H-scenes in Visual Novels.
My main argument relies on morality. Some people would say: “You can’t enforce morality on everyone! Morality is relative to each person (this is also known as moral relativism)!” This is demonstrably false. Rape is objectively evil in all cases; therefore, there exist objective moral rules that guide human actions, since that statement about rape is one such objective moral rule. The question is: how can we show that a certain act is objectively evil? If we can prove it, then society can recognize that objective fact. Once that is done, society codifies that into law: rape, murder, theft, arson, assault and battery, scandal, destruction of public property, etc. are legally wrong because they were first objectively morally wrong. We can deduce these facts from principles of reason (cf. Socrates, Aristotle, Kant, Aquinas, tons of other philosophers). Hence, these objective moral rules are often called “the natural law.”
So: how can we prove that a certain act is objectively wrong? This discussion would become far, far too long, so I’ll do this: if you are willing to discuss the matter (in a philosophical manner, relying on intellect and reason), please notify me, and I will truly, honestly rejoice and be glad to talk about this to any length!
For now, I’ll merely state my conclusion: lust is morally wrong according to the natural law.
To explain my knowledge of the matter, I should give some background. I’m in training to become a Catholic priest, so I’m sure you can guess where my position will lie: lust is evil. Masturbation, in fact, is gravely evil. H-scenes provide readers with both material to sin with and arousal to entice them to sin. This cannot be avoided, since H-scenes, by definition, are about sex, which is inherently arousing (for obvious reasons). Hence, H-scenes are evil. Pornography takes this a step further by being directly ordered to the viewer’s sexual pleasure and arousal, which makes pornography inexcusable. H-scenes, while some may tote them to be artistic and not pornographic, retain both arousal and material for lust, which mark them as being at the very least dangerous to all but the most selfless and pure, and thus should not be included either. Therefore, if lust is objectively evil, so is pornography; and H-scenes are either pornographic or very close to it. Thus, they should not be in visual novels.
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Kaiba has some teen rated stuff in it pretty much, but nothing beyond that. I don’t know what you are thinking of for that show.
You can use them well, but I’ve yet to see a VN that included H-scenes that expressed more than more typical scenes could have expressed. Even in stuff like Saya no Uta, I feel like they just said “we need to portray blah blah blah, let’s do a H-scene.” Sure they might show something in the H-scene, but… it would have worked just as well without the H-scene there in the first place.
How have I not posted in here yet. ok, let’s do this.
I love them, they put in a change and often come unexpected and I am quite on the edge and surprised, when it happens, positively of course. This reminds me about something I was saying in some other trade, if there is a version of a VN with H-content in it, then I want that one. If there are other versions, that dont have it, but have other new content, then it depends on how the H-content and the new content are each incoparated with the story. For example, I had the option of buying literally every version of Little Busters Ex and I decided to buy the version with H-content, because I wanna see how it gets handled and it was also an aspect I found interesting in Tomoyo After. I know I am only talking about Key works here, but believe it or not, I dont read that many VNs at all, most of them have H-content to be honest, because I just really like it that way. The H-content fits into the story and sex is a way of showing love and I am not talking about that hard shit, it’s not really my thing, but it is always you own decision to say if you like a VN, if some hard shit is part of it, then it’s like that because for a reason. It either fits with the setting or with a character.
Well, I guess that should be enough. That’s a wall of text there.
tl;dr: I like them
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For some strange reason, yesterday I saw myself re-reading Kanon Shiori’s H scene
Somehow, I feel like hers was the least bad, since it makes sense, considering the motif of romance, and being treated like a normal girl in her last days
Compare that to the others who were from plainly unremarkable to outright horrendous looking at you, Ayu
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Thank you so much @Aegair. Why is society so afraid of sex and nudity, even though almost everybody does it… There’s so much important meaning behind it, yet its meaning that we are supposed to keep to ourselves… oh well /shrug
Umm… what? No.
[quote=“sillylittlemelody, post:166, topic:401”]
VNs are expensive, so normally people buy just one per month.
[/quote]No idea where you’re getting this from…
[quote=“sillylittlemelody, post:166, topic:401”]
I don’t know if this is related to that, but this month, there were very few VN releases compared to the previous months. Perhaps this is due to AB’s release, and that competing against it is almost worthless.
[/quote]First of all, yes, fewer, but no, not to the extent you’re describing. Second, ummm, Angel Beats! was supposed to be released last month so… no.
[quote=“sillylittlemelody, post:166, topic:401”]
VNs with many H-scenes or nukiges, are “safer” to sell.
[/quote]Im just going to give you the benefit of the doubt and hope you do not mean that VNs with many H-scenes are nukiges. Also, in many cases, yes, but this is not a definite. Its more like: VN’s will be safer to sell if they have H-scenes, not VN’s with H-scenes will be safer to sell, if that makes any sense.
[quote=“sillylittlemelody, post:166, topic:401”]
We have had, though some good improvements in the subject. Frontwing, for example, has announced an all-ages game with only a patch to unlock the H. Frontwing has been being really famous for Grisaia, so they can trust on their fame. I just hope more companies do the same.
[/quote]Well, yeah. Because Kickstarter and Steam would never allow H-content. Which is part of the market expansion which you seem to think is nonexistent.
Also, thank you @EndOfRefrain. Finally we can have someone just come out and say it.
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This is from an interview from a VN advertising person or something I read. This is how he said it works.
[quote=“Yerian, post:173, topic:401, full:true”]First of all, yes, fewer, but no, not to the extent you’re describing. Second, ummm, Angel Beats! was supposed to be released last month so… no.
[/quote]
So this may be unrelated to that.
[quote=“Yerian, post:173, topic:401, full:true”]Im just going to give you the benefit of the doubt and hope you do not mean that VNs with many H-scenes are nukiges. Also, in many cases, yes, but this is not a definite. Its more like: VN’s will be safer to sell if they have H-scenes, not VN’s with H-scenes will be safer to sell, if that makes any sense.
[/quote]
I meant VNs with many H-scenes, but non-nukiges, yeah. I said that or nukiges. I understand what you mean, yeah.
[quote=“Yerian, post:173, topic:401, full:true”]Well, yeah. Because Kickstarter and Steam would never allow H-content. Which is part of the market expansion which you seem to think is nonexistent.
[/quote]
Market expansion on West. Some companies may be more open to the West now, but in Japan, they aren’t really trying to expand their market.
I dont see a reason why not? I am old enough, so why shouldnt I like it?
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I’m not sure I agree with what’s being said here at all, but admittedly my studies on ethics are quite dated. Mind you, I also wouldn’t argue that you need to argue something as being objectively evil for it to be ‘wrong enough’ for your argument. Not that I understand at all how you could define lust as morally and objectively wrong, but hey whatever, this might be better off going else where or being dropped, but here go.
Now I disagree with alot of what you’ve said, but I feel this premise is faulty enough on it’s own right. Conflating scenes involving sex as being inherently arousing is bogus. (I’d also argue arousing doesn’t conflate to masturbation either for this argument but hey whatever) Saya no Uta is a wonderful thing to state here, because none of it’s sex scenes (except maybe the first) are designed to be arousing. They’re horrifying. Whilst I’m sure someone out there has masturbated heavily to them all, that certainly isn’t the case for most people, most people probably wouldn’t be aroused by that kind of depiction. This isn’t unique to visual novels either, nudity and sex is present in many art forms without being conflated with arousal. (Pretty certain it’s also present in early Christian art forms before certain events. But that’s neither here or there.)
The other way that premise fails is by what it entails. The entailment here is anything that fits into your box of ‘objective evil’ should never be presented in media. I would want to argue that violence is overstated in media, but the idea that no violence, no theft, no anything in your box should depicted is probably something you’d not want to argue.
Mmmm. Kinda. It was the least graphic of the few I chose, so maybe I shouldn’t have. I do dislike how Yuasa depicts sexuality anyway for what it’s worth.
Since I’ve been playing Umineko lately I really want to reply to this yelling ‘this is useless’ or ‘Devil’s Proof’. But instead, what about Cross Channel? Or the other anime I referenced if you’ve seen them. I genuinely believe that a visual novel could cover similar things to Yuri Kuma Arashi, and Fujiko Mine, but they’d need to have H-scenes in order to truly explore sexuality as much as it’d like to.
Kickstarter did at one point before rules changes, haaa. And I’m sure you all saw the Mangagamer ESRB troubles a while back? I think that’s at least one of the issues with H-content on Steam. (Not that our ways of rating what counts as porn and what doesn’t for the sake of Steam and stuff. Hi there Witcher and various other RPGs with sex scenes in. Our rating systems are pretty blegh)
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It’s worth noting that any company who tries to expand their H-content to the west risks bringing up that old controversy again. They saw all the crazy activists who’d jump on their games and ride them to censorship fame.
I have little good to say about Cross Channel~
Didn’t see Yuri Kuma because it looked too magical girl-ey. The Lupin stuff is too much of a time sink.
Just do a Now and Then, Here and There.
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I apologize for the amount of writing; I wanted to clear up any misunderstandings. As noted, it’s best if we don’t debate moral philosophy on this particular topic; I simply want to bring up this objection and clarify it, so that people do not misunderstand my point and construct straw man arguments against it.
I should be more specific: by “lust,” I do not mean “human sexual desire,” which is normal and good. “Lust” properly refers to a disordered, or inordinate, desire for sexual pleasure; in other words, lust is seeking sexual pleasure when you ought not have it. This relies on a philosophical argument about sex, and when it ought to happen. As you stated:
Hence I ask; anyone who would like to discuss lust and morality, please PM me. I’d be happy to exchange thoughts on the matter in a reasonable fashion.
There is a distinction to be made: pornography and H-scenes. As I stated:
Pornography takes this a step further by being directly ordered to the viewer’s sexual pleasure and arousal, which makes pornography inexcusable.
Thus, if lust is wrong, pornography is as well.
H-scenes can be different:
H-scenes, while some may tote them to be artistic and not pornographic, retain both arousal and material for lust, which mark them as being at the very least dangerous to all but the most selfless and pure
I admit, there is a bit of uncertainty here. Some H-scenes, as you noted, are not pornography, and therefore are not necessarily included as “things which fall under lust.” But H-scenes do involve sex. Is sex always arousing? As you said, no. I haven’t played the game you mentioned (nor will I), but from the sound of it, I wouldn’t be the least aroused. But that’s not true for everyone. A quick Google search landed me in rather disturbing waters about people aroused by very disturbing sexual scenes. Furthermore, assume all my other premises are true: then the only sex scenes one would encounter would be in these horror environments. If you play mostly all-ages games, a sudden heavily sexual scene will have a lot more potential to arouse you.
In the end, that’s not the real issue. The number of sex scenes that could be toted as “artistic” and “non-pornographic” in this manner are very, very few. The bigger question is H-scenes in general. So the bigger question concerns H-scenes ordered to lust, which refers to the question about when sexual pleasure is acceptable, which refers to a philosophical debate that needs to happen only in PM’s/a topic devoted to such. So message me if you want to discuss this further.
One last point:
Distinction: it is one thing to depict evil. It is another to depict material which, by its very nature, is ordered for the viewer to commit evil themselves. What was the verdict behind the question, “Does violence in video games cause violent behavior?” Most everyone said no. If science proved this to be a definite and overwhelming “Yes,” society would have major qualms about violence, right? We don’t want to cause people playing the game to do evil!
But video games don’t cause violent behavior. However, pornography is directly ordered to the viewer’s inordinate sexual pleasure. If lust is evil, then pornography is meant to cause the viewer to commit evil. That’s the difference between depicting violence and depicting pornography: the former does not incite the viewer to be violent. The latter does incite the viewer to be lustful.
The most awkward one for me was Makoto’s…I felt kind of bad because it seemed like she didn’t even know what was going on…
I’m not against that at all (though I don’t really like it)
that’s why I loved key more, their works has less H scenes than other companies.
not to mention that I personally think that companies nowadays are putting some fan service stuff just to increase sales (I hate pirating .-.) so I don’t really mind putting H-scenes in a VN if it will not effect the main story
So, I’ve finally decided to chime in on this discussion.
When I first started playing visual novels, I didn’t really think H scenes belonged in them. Thought it made things too awkward. But over time I started viewing it as a “necessary evil” for story progression, but these days I think they’re alright. They can potentially add more depth to characters, and overall adds more content where there wouldn’t be any.
As long they’re done tastefully, I don’t mind them anymore. Though I can’t stress enough that a VN doesn’t need H-scenes to be amazing. In fact, a lot I’ve read would seem weird to include them. But I suppose that’s my opinion, it’s all relative, etc.
