H-scenes in Visual Novels: Opinions and discussion

Off-Topic
#182

It’s a tough topic to discuss for many reasons. One of them would be the difference in experience between the participants.

Some of us have never played a VN that included “meaningful” H-scenes. I myself have only twice seen examples of such scenes that to my mind have gone beyond mere fanservice/sells boost/jerk-off material and have actually contributed positively to story and character development in a convincing fashion. Which means that almost all H-scenes I have seen or skipped so far have impacted my reading experience of their respective VNs in a negative way.

But some users who took part in this discussion have had a very different experience with H-scenes in VNs. They claim that somewhere out there, there are VNs where H-scenes are actually well-done and have a proper, meaningful function. And if it wasn’t for those 2 exceptions I have experienced, I would find it very hard to believe that “good” H-scenes actually exist, which in turn would make it harder for me to view even the very concept of H-scenes in a positive way.

2 Likes
#183

When I first started playing VNs, I totally hated H-Scenes. I would go out of my way to avoid them or VNs that had H-Scenes in them. Eventually, I began to tolerate them and even like them in certain situations.

I think a good H-Scene, especially in a romance-themed VN or route, should be a testament to the connection between two characters. As you watch a relationship slowly grow and see as it endures through any problems, you begin to get attached to those characters and their relationships with each other. Seeing their relationship take the next step is really fulfilling for me to see. I can also really appreciate plot relevant H-Scenes as they hold that same kind of fulfillment for me.

Overall, I just like H-Scenes that have meaning to them, wither that meaning be within the relationship or within the plot. However, what has or doesn’t have meaning is totally subjective. For one person, only plot relevant scenes have meaning to me, and for others, there is no H-Scene thats meaningful for them. It’s an entirely subjective matter and will go on forever as long as people have opinions on sex in media. There is no right or wrong answer, only opinions.

#184

Personally I’m not bothered by sex in the slightest, in fact I’m what many would call a pervert haha, however there are times where I feel h scenes are uneseserry or forced, early key games are a great example of this.
Anyway if an h scene comes up I’ll skip it a lot of the time only because it’s boring and does nothing for the plot, but it doesn’t bother me really.

#185

Coming from a background of only having played Key visual novels, as well as not being part of the heterosexual male audience that these H-Scenes are intended for, it’s pretty easy for me to say that I’m not fond of them at all.

The Kanon scenes are infamous for being poorly placed, featuring dubious consent, and simply being awkward, and the Air ones aren’t too much better. It’s pretty clear for these two games at least that the scenes were tacked on to give otaku looking for an eroge an excuse to pull out their wallets, and allowing them to be easily excised to bring in a different market further along the line.

Then when we come to Tomoyo After, it’s pretty much a completely different ball game… Being based solely on a specific heroine, fully voiced, and relegated almost entirely to before the story proper begins made them totally different and essentially much more pornographic than earlier ones. It’s much clearer to me that these were designed to titillate (with the earlier ones I can honestly say I’m not sure). It’s quite a shame considering many are put off by the fact that the first few hours of the novel are essentially just sex, when the story yet to unfold is one of the most personal Key has told.

It’s a commendable decision Key made to release Clannad, Little Busters, and Rewrite for all ages (and going as far to say that Rewrite will never have adult scenes) but then we have the disappointing issue of Ecstasy once again shoehorning in porn in a story where it doesn’t really belong to sell more copies. At least there have been versions featuring the EX story without the adult content, but it’s still puzzling to me seeing Key constantly flip-flopping on the issue. And let’s not even get into Kud Wafter, which from what I hear features a similar “ero to story” progression as Tomoyo After does (correct me if I’m wrong) but relishing in sexualizing someone appearing to be a prepubescent girl rather than effectively an adult woman.

3 Likes
#186

Not that Im trying to convince you to like H-scenes or anything like that, but creating an opinion surrounding H-scenes based solely on Key’s isnt really the best idea. I dont think there’s a single person who think Key does “good” H-scenes, in any sense of the word. You described why that is pretty well.

That said, for some people you probably dont even need to have ever seen an H-scene to know your opinion on them. And if there’s one thing Ive learned from this thread, its that with subjects like these, no matter what you say, most people arent going to budge on their opinions.

Personally, I will continue to defend H-scenes as not being as bad as people make them out to be. I think this is largely in part because they are the biggest (well, maybe the second biggest after not being able to read Japanese) blockade to people reading some amazing VNs, and H-scenes arent just gonna suddenly disappear.

I would like to believe that maybe with the recent growth in western market, especially the part of the western market that wants All-Ages VNs, that maybe we will be seeing more All-Ages soon, but honestly I have absolutely no idea. And honestly they dont usually bother me anyways.

2 Likes
#187

I wouldn’t say that your average H-scenes are any more tasteful than Key’s though.

#188

What do you mean by tasteful though?

#189

Not painfully awful.

#190

Eh. Fair I suppose. In the same sense that most mainstream porn is painfully awful, and that most VNs are a form of porn. (Not mainstream by many stretches though). I would put forward that most ‘good’ VNs have better H-scenes than Key ones. No not you Nasu-works, sit down.

1 Like
#191

Yeah, another thing I learned from this thread: how drastically subjective words like “tasteful” are…

[quote=“Aegair, post:190, topic:401”]
most VNs are a form of porn
[/quote]I see it as an interesting grey area. Certainly there are some VNs, such as the nukige genre, of which almost the sole purpose is surely to be porn. But theyre are plenty of VNs in which, while the H-scenes themselves may be porn, the VN is typically not consumed for that purpose. For example, I dont know of anyone who would buy G-senjou no Maou for the H-scenes. I mean sure, it has them, and Im sure plenty of people enjoy that part, but it wasnt bought for that reason.

#192

Yeah, like most translated VNs for certain are not being consumed for the purpose of porn, unless you’re taking rather encompassing definitions of porn. I was merely expressing how viewing the genre as nought but porn, whilst wrong, has some grounds to them. Kinda. I wouldn’t even find porn itself to be derogatory, but I believe that in the context of the discussion it sorta is? The idea that something should separate itself from its pornographic elements to be seen as legitimate seems remarkably silly though. Classical art, film and fashion have not, and do not need to after all.

1 Like
#193

I guess that goes back to the discussion about whether pornography, explicit sex, nudity, etc. is inherently bad, or whether thats just what society and religion or whatever else that has formed our beliefs, has taught us. And really, I dont want to get into that discussion, at least not here.

#194

I kinda see H-scenes as a completely different beast from other discussions of sexual depictions though. Obviously I’m not going to go into my opinions on mainstream pornography here, but talking about things like regular sex scenes in fiction it’s hard not to see a difference. I can’t exactly name a dozen off my head but there’s definitely plenty of them that aren’t just gratuitous nudity and do serve a purpose within story context. And even in those that aren’t, VNs are separated by the fact that you’re very unlikely to see a sex scene so explicit in 99% of any other fiction.

#195

That’s the part where you wouldnt necessarily understand, because none of Key’s H-scenes, as you say, serve a purpose within story context.

But that really has been the main argument of this topic: whether there are H-scenes that are necessary/relevant/serve a purpose besides porn. Some people say absolutely. Some people say absolutely not. We havent really come to any kinda of middle ground kind of agreement on that one.

However, a large percentage of people here do agree that, as you pointed out, most if not all of the H-scenes that were necessary/etc. did not require being so explicit to convey the same point and themes.

#196

You guys are all approaching this the wrong way, methinks.

Like I’ve said before, I don’t see H-scenes as anything more than porn (aside exceptions mentioned earlier). But I have also mentioned that I do not see anything unethical or immoral with pornography.

It seems to me, from the way some people are responding on this thread, is that a “good” h-scene constitutes it being something less “porn”-y and more story.

But I think that defeats the entire purpose! That’s like saying a good cake is dependent on how salty it tastes. If you go stop trying to force it into the story, and view it for what it is, then you can judge its merits on criteria appropriate for what it is.

tl;dr what I am saying is judge the quality of h-scenes based on how good the porn is :stuck_out_tongue: This may sound very silly, but if you remove the pre-notions that pornography is unethical, it makes sense. There are so many ways to do this. Is it written in a way that can successfully excite the reader, or is it just plain smut? Are the sexual interactions placed in a normal way, going from light to heavy foreplay, before intercourse? And if they aren’t, is there an exciting reason for doing so?

The whole point of porn is to excite the readers sexually, and if we stop forcing H-scenes to become part of the story and start viewing it as porn, I feel you can really view it in a different light.

4 Likes
#197

My problem with H-scenes is that the porn exists .-. That doesn’t mean some aren’t worse than others though. There’s still judgement of quality to be had, even ignoring the porn aspect.

I try not to stare at lights too much. It can blind you o.o

I do think this is a distinction that a lot of people fail to see, although I don’t think those people are on Kazamatsuri
These are the people who complain when a VN gets an all ages version… Complaining over the removal of nothing. If you want porn, then just say so. Don’t act like the integrity of a VN has been violated by the decision to make it less explicit.
.
VNs are a form of storytelling, so I expect story. H-scenes are a waste of time and they just get in the way. It’s not story, it’s porn, and I don’t believe it has any business being there outside of boosting sales.

#198

Personally, I think it would be pretty interesting to discuss them this way, but there are several problems with that:

  1. The number of people who have expressed their hatred for H-scenes, are… numerous, so there probably wouldnt be too many of us talking here.
  2. Aspi would probably get pissed at us and shut us down. He did it before in the manga topic when we started talking H-manga:
1 Like
#199

No, the people who complain about a VN getting an all ages version are the ones who constantly push about the “H-scenes being important to the story” bit which I just despise XP

But yeah, no need to discuss it any further, as @Yerian said. Just thought I’d give some additional perspective to this topic before it becomes a circlejerk

#200

What I’m gunning for is more a separation of the two things. There’s plenty of eroge that pride themselves on being pretty much straight up porn. I don’t believe a sex scene in anything is necessarily morally reprehensible - I just think, given Key’s record, we can all agree that they’re not necessary. And in Key’s case, I do believe it cheapens the novel. Like I said, coming from a Key-only perspective I certainly have a different outlook on this than others.

When people want pornography, there’s more suitable ways to obtain it than 10 hours into a melodramatic supernatural romance story. I’ll always hope Key moves completely away from H-scenes, as unlikely as it is - there’s plenty of other eroge out there for their respective fans.

1 Like
#201

I don’t like it if they were actually useful to character development. Even if they’re not I hate censorship of an author’s original intention so it’s hard for someone who doesn’t care for them to really fight either way (especially with games like Grisaia and G-Senjou releasing on Steam now in their all-ages form).