I would refrain from interacting with those who do…
There have been many many many situations where a person has killed a friend. Or are you denying every case of that is false?
Are you asking me to explain how sex became taboo in every culture that it is taboo?
What don’t you think I’m right on?
I haven’t seen any. But this is off-topic, anyway.
So, you’d probably prefer not to discuss with me any longer…
Yes.
On the fact that there are people here okay with posting their nude pics on the internet.
I know this post is 18 days old now, but I didnt get the chance to write in here. I think I already mentioned, I want the h-scenes for the porn and how it is placed in the game. I will take Little Busters as an example here. From the CGs I have seen, I am really interested in when and how exactly they take place, which is why I got myself a 18+ copy of the VN. Also, I want to experience the porn, with all these characters, that I like so much, especially Saya of course. I think that is a given for someone like me.
I am literally always interested in the porn for more than one reason. Nothing stops me from liking it and I dont even really care what others think about that.
Shrugs I’d rather at least give you the benefit of the doubt and hope when you’re older you’ll understand why conflating sex with abuse wrt humans is troubling.
You’re asking me to write not just one, but like hundreds of Masters thesis’ here. (I could be being hyperbolic here, but I don’t think I am) That just isn’t possible, and I certainly wouldn’t do it for free. I can however wave my hands at Christianity in the West and how it was used over the centuries. And I’d also have to wave my hands at globalization if you’re wanting to look at sexuality in modern years…
You realise I can simply say “I’m comfortable with that.” and I’ve proven my point here right? Not that Kaza is the place for that.
No, you can’t (this is internet, so everyone could be lying about everything). And truth to be told, there’s no safe way to prove that. Let’s just modus vivendi here.
You can’t have a discussion without some form of mutual trust from each party to tell their truth. ^^;; That’s kinda a fundamental part of conversation.
I think the difference between what you two are saying is @sillylittlemelody is referring to the physical act itself, and @Aegair is referring to the concept behind the act. In which case I agree with both of you.
[quote=“sillylittlemelody, post:218, topic:401”]
Anyone who loves someone wouldn’t murder him/her.
[/quote]Once again, both of you seem to be arguing two different facets of the same issue: I think Silly is saying that anyone that actually “loved” someone wouldn’t murder them, While Aegair is saying that plenty of people who are boyfriends, girlfriends, brothers, sisters, moms, dads, friends have killed or hurt their corresponding “loved” ones. While I think the concept you are presenting is ideal, Silly, the saying “love hurts” exists for a reason. And where do you think the yandere archetype comes from?
[quote=“sillylittlemelody, post:220, topic:401”]
So why would it become taboo in the first place?
[/quote]Hmmm, at first I was inclined to agree with Aegair, but you’re question got me thinking, Silly. If I had to venture a guess, I would say the taboo comes from both the instinct to protect genitals and sex as they are our only way of survival, and to protect from even wider-spread sexual abuse than already exists.
[quote=“jda95, post:221, topic:401”]
An important note, though: the majority of visual novels, exact details of their sexual conent aside, feature underage people. Whether or not they’re promoting a healthy view of sexuality aside, the sexualization of primarily high school girls is never exactly a good thing.
[/quote]Fairly good point. Most VNs have a “all characters depicted are 18 years or older” advisory, but we all know thats just to get around laws. Although I would argue that the “never a good thing” goes back to the argument with @ghagler about whether or not there is such thing as objective wrong and objective right.
In fact I would argue that, going back to my post waaaaaay up there in the middle of oblivion, questioning why there is a taboo about sex but not about violence, if you are going to say the sexualization of minors is always a bad thing (which most of society seems to agree on?), then murder and torture of minors is always a bad thing. And yet we show that in media all the time with much less push back.
Oh… You innocent soul. There is some morbid stuff out there.
And Religion. And disease.
Half the time, the characters are said to be younger than 18!
Kinda. It’s less the concept and more me taking a different contextual use whilst I think Silly is going by some, far more clinical one. I’d say it’s probably similar to using ‘female’ and ‘woman’. Sorta.The separation of using ‘sex’ with regard to people from other abusive acts is fairly important since the idea of consent and various other important facets of sex simply aren’t taught well enough. (Be that via society or via schooling). So you separate them to get rid of alot of shitty connotations, confusions, and just plain abusive behaviour. This shouldn’t be something weird to think either. Especially when your naturally inclination, probably, when you hear “X had sex with Y.” isn’t gonna be something abusive. (Unless that’s implied with the X and Y itself, which again I’d say is troubling in it’s own regards.)
I’m not sure this is the case. Sex as a taboo isn’t universal enough for this to be the case. Plus there’s the entire “No vaginas exist in art compared to how penises are fucking everywhere” and how arguments via evolution are generally useless when it comes to social or cultural things. I’d also point out taboo about talking about sex results in more sexual abuse, since then people don’t tend to inquire about it, think about it, or in some cases even understand how it’s sexual abuse in the first place.
Yes, taboo’s are paradoxical, true. But this is no longer really contributing anything about H-scenes, so lets move on.
I think its going to be interesting, with this new trend toward localizing VNs in the West, to see how H-content will be dealt with. Will all-ages and 18+ versions be sold from different distributors like with Grisaia and NekoPara (that seems like a lot of work to me)? Will they just release the all-ages versions? You know, etc. and all that.
Will other companies strive to create all-ages version like Sekai Project, and will doing so continue to bring backlash like what happened to MoeNovel?
SP seems to have the right idea. Just have a sister publisher to throw out the 18+ versions.
[quote=“Doublethree1, post:209, topic:401”]
These clearly exist for story and even if they didn’t, why must companies that focus on nukige and ergoe have to include all-ages?
[/quote]That’s not what I am saying. What I mean is that, those who DON’T have sex scenes might want to add some, but locked as to keep the game all-age.
My point here is pretty personal, but as I said before, I hate hentai that:
For those reason, I only read/watch hentai that I feel a connection with the characters, hence why I almost never watch hentai (because there’s much more variety in doujins).
[quote=“Aegair, post:208, topic:401”]
But I’ve said it before multiple times and will continue to: Shying away from sex is harmful and wrong.
[/quote]I don’t think sex is bad in any way. Don’t misunderstand me. I’m not AGAINST sex, I am all for it. I think I might simply have failed to explain myself since everybody didn’t understand it as I wanted to say it, but… I think that, for the sake of marketing and my personal preferences, Non-H should include H-scenes. The comparison I wanted to make with other VNs was that some had H-scenes, but no one could have any connection with the characters. That’S where Non-H comes in. Non-H exists mostly for the story (I consider Ecchi a part of the Slightly H, BTW…), and I think that’s where they win. But as I said, so that the actual market for Non-H doesn’t decrease, the H-scenes should be locked. That way, Non-H VNs could be used as books. VNs that contains H-scenes that aren’t necessary should also have this rule (take Le fruit de la Grisaia for example).
I would like to respond to the others, but I have no time. Sorry.
What.
Okay no.
Or rather, there’s probably some cases where this probably should be. But the idea that everything should include H is fucked up.
So we agree that sex, if done right, is generally good for relationship building and storytelling involving a relationship.
We don’t agree on how everything should have it though. Just off the top of my head sex scenes would be completely out of place in VNs such as Phoenix Wright or fault milestone one. While both have relationship building that isn’t the main focus of either. Adding sex in Phoenix Wright would probably make Phoenix break laws anyway.
Even stories about relationships I don’t think it’s fitting sometimes. I couldn’t see it fitting well in any Clannad route besides maybe Tomoyo’s and After Story with Nagisa to make Ushio . The Way We All Go (indie VN published by SP) also has a focus on romance and I couldn’t see sex scenes fitting in.
By requiring H content locked that still gives it an A rating meaning Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft won’t allow it on their platforms. Steam doesn’t allow games with explicit sexual content on its service either. You are also forcing the writer to add something to their story that they might not feel comfortable writing or feel it fits in their story and I hate writers being forced to do anything to their original story intent.
[quote=“Doublethree1, post:235, topic:401”]
Just off the top of my head sex scenes would be completely out of place in VNs such as Phoenix Wright or fault milestone one. While both have relationship building that isn’t the main focus of either. Adding sex in Phoenix Wright would probably make Phoenix break laws anyway.
[/quote]Gotta agree with you. Seems decent enough.
[quote=“Doublethree1, post:235, topic:401”]
I hate writers being forced to do anything to their original story intent.
[/quote]I have to agree with you on that though. I like to write myself.
You, sir, has made me change opinion. Leave me alone now. I’ll go cry in the corner for being wrong.
Well.
I haven’t played any VNs. As an asexual 17-year-old female, eroge aren’t meant for me.
I was reading through all the posts and I’m kind of confused about why people are confused society is prudent about these things. I mean, religion, of course.
Anyway, I really hate anything sexual. Like Takafumi I’m disgusted by it. Bodies are gross.
Someday I will probably buy Key all ages VNs, but never the 18+ VNs
It weirds me out that other people like the erotic content, but who am I to judge? I don’t feel the same things they feel.
It’s really annoying sometimes.
I got a friend into VNs kind of… She ran out of Shoujo-Ai anime and manga since it’s the only genre she actually pays attention to, so we moved onto VNs, and there’s like… 3. 3 that don’t have H-scenes. One of them isn’t even released yet, and it’s a prequel to a famous eroge series! One of them is small and cheap, so there’s no voices or anything.
(As an aside, Im not really sure this is true. But I much more enjoy the discussion that comes out of assuming it is for a second, so lets stick with that)
The question then becomes: Why does religion treat sexual content as it does?
I am going to argue “respect.” Respect for sexuality and the human body. How often have you seen seen some media that portrays sex and sexuality respectfully? Whenever I’ve seen it, its never been done explicitly.
If it happened, or if it were even possible, to portray it both explicitly and respectfully, do you think there would be such a taboo? And I’m not trying to lead you on here, Im legitimately asking this question, which Im not even sure I know the answer to myself.
Of course, this is lampshading the fact that most (if not all, but thats another argument all together) H-content is actually put in VNs as porn, but still.
Anyways, I think its very sad that H-content stops so many people from reading so many amazing VNs. The only thing I can suggest to you is 1) Read the all-ages ones. Every once and awhile you’ll even see all ages patches, and 2) Just skip the scenes if you have to. As we discussed earlier, most H-scenes dont have plot relevant content anyways.
I mean, erotic content can be acceptable if it is used properly. This kind of relationship are healthy for couples and are a proof of trust and dedication. Also they can mean betrayal, between two lovers after cheating. Or a (sorry for the word) rape can be a really important point of a drama, either in the background story of a scared character, or as a turning point in the story, where the life of a character you love is shatered. There are lots of ways to use erotic content in a story to advance the plot.
However, if your whole story revolves around sexual content, then it is probably a lack of imagination in the author. They know sexuality will allow them to sell a lot of copies, so they “prostitute” their work, spoiling it to get money. That way, even if their plotline is full of holes and ininteresting, they still make money. I really hate that kind of VN (or novel, manga, any story) because they are advertised as a story, but are really just pornography.
Some games though are just in a complete different category, they are literally just porn. I can understand why people buy them, just like I understand why people watch porn. These game don’t really tell a story, they just want to show erotic content to their viewers and are not hiding it. Unlike a story that patches its lack of content with sex, these ones are only there for the sex, who cares about story, we want to show lewd things. I am personally not a fan of them, but I understand the reason why they exist.
Also, if you want to play the general audience of key VNs, I suggest you play the memorial version of little busters!, because it contains the aditional story from little busters! EX, but the sex scenes are removed.
I agree with you 100% there but the problem is trust should take a while to build up, in most visual novels you get into the pants of your partner pretty damn quick. I honestly can’t think of one visual novel were sex didn’t feel forced or unnecessary.
As I mentioned before I’m all for porn or whatever, but the problem stems when they place these scenes into games that do NOT need it, key and innocent grey are prime examples of companies that do that. You worded it perfectly in that companies “prostitue” their games to get a few extra bucks, and I personally find that disgraceful and disrespctful to their fans.
Also I agree rape is a very dark but passionless way to add extreme drama to a game but they don’t neacrerily need to actually show the scene as an h-scene, there are other ways to manage it I’m sure.
