H-scenes in Visual Novels: Opinions and discussion

Off-Topic
#242

You use the word ‘respect’; to me it comes down to the word ‘sacred’.
Things to be respected are okay to be put in media. Such is not the case with sacred things.
There’s nothing wrong with the act when it happens between two people who are married, but that doesn’t include watching it happen in a story.
It’s sacred because the first commandment God gave to Adam and Eve was to “multiply and replenish the Earth” but only when they became husband and wife. I think.
And another thing is that Adam and Eve felt ashamed of their nakedness after they’d partaken of the fruit, which would “explain” why people are private about their bodies.

Obviously not everyone believes this, but a lot of Christians do and that’s why I think many Christians don’t like portrayal of sexual intimacy. It desecrates the sacredness because it’s something you’re only suppose to share with your eternal partner, not something to witness others doing (in this case, characters :p)

#243

But religions do not deem things sacred “just 'cause God (or whatever form of divinity) said so.” Even if that is what is told to the followers, there are always deeper meaning than that.

I’ve had over a decade of Catholic education, and I’ve never heard of the creation narrative being sited for the Church’s teachings on sexuality. But I know little of what other factions of Christianity teach, so I’m not refuting your position on this.
Even so, what you’ve listed are just stories, which then begs the question “What reason did the author have for recording a story with such a message?” However, this probably isnt the place to have an extended discussion on this, so I would be happy to discuss it in PM with you if you’d like :smile:

Anyways, my point was that sex is held to be special (I’ll use this word instead of sacred to include the non-religious) by many people, and to varying degrees. Therefore, porn and even non-pornographic, but gratuitous sex can seem devalutizing (probably not a word, but you get what I mean). I personally agree that there are many good aspects of this position, but also some negative ones.

#244

I’m not sure what you mean. If God saying something is so doesn’t make it so, what DOES make it so?
And I’m also not sure what you mean by “deeper meaning than that”. Deeper meaning than “because God said so”? There probably is, but God doesn’t necessarily tell us his reasons for giving commandments.

By Catholic education do you mean actual Catholic school, or simply studying Catholicism in general? I know very little about Catholicism, but I had a Catholic friend once who interpreted the events of the Bible much differently than I did.
In any case, I actually don’t like discussing religion because it all comes down to what each person believes and I don’t like getting into disagreements with people.
It’s just been my experience that the religious people I know see intimacy as private and sacred and the non-religious people less so.
The Adam and Eve thing was my explanation for it, I can’t really speak for what anyone else thinks/believes ^^"

EDIT:
For me, it doesn’t come down to whether or not h-scenes can be good for a story or not (I’m guessing they can), it comes down to whether or not God would approve of me watching it. And I don’t think he would.
I just tend to put God first. I prioritize him over my own enjoyment of things. Of course, in this case it’s not a problem since I wouldn’t enjoy reading h-scenes anyway :stuck_out_tongue:emphasized text

#245

Society and morality, which is a human creation, meaning it’s flawed. I don’t believe in the principles of right and wrong, I think there are too many sides to everything.

#246

My question was aimed towards a religious perspective. To people who believe in God.
That is, I’m asking why someone who worships God wouldn’t accept his word for what it is.

#247

Ok I misunderstood what you meant my bad

#248

Heh, it’s fine! I wasn’t quite clear with my wording the first time ^^"

#249

As an atheist, I see religion as a collection of good advice from past generations, codified to be passed down in the best way we know how: stories. Looking at it this way, we have to think about why the religious stance on sex might have been good advice in the past, and see if the reasons still apply today.

Here’s the main point about sex: sex creates children. It’s enjoyable, it’s a way to show affection, it brings couples together, but ultimately sex between a man and a woman still has the chance to create another person. That’s a big deal, it’s a huge responsibility, and it used to be essential to do it a lot to keep the population growing. Historically, because of infant mortality and the need for physical labor, it was always a good idea to pop out kids, so religions built their rules for sex around popping out kids and raising them.

Nowadays there’s birth control, which breaks the direct link between sex and children. Sure, you still need to have sex to have kids, but you can have sex without the intention of pregnancy without it being irresponsible. That changes things, but it takes a long time for religion to catch up with how that should affect their rules.

As for porn, religions aren’t always the best at conveying nuanced rules. The ten commandments are all 1 sentence rules, for example, they aren’t detailed explanations of the reasons and exceptions for things. “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife” seems to be a blanket commandment against lust, and porn would probably fall into that sanction.

2 Likes
#250

Question for any mods reading this thread: are we allowed to discuss religion and the like? This is about H-scenes, so I don’t want to derail the conversation into something inappropriate, if that’s the case.

But people started discussing Catholicism, so here I am!

Disclaimer: I’m simply referencing the Church’s beliefs in response to questions about the Church’s beliefs. I’m not trying to start a debate. PM me if you want to discuss the matter (I’ll apologize in advance to @Yerian for still not replying to our previous thread…)

Actually, the Catholic Church almost immediately ruled on the morality of birth control: specifically, that it’s not moral, precisely for the reason you said: it separates the sexual reproductive act from reproduction. But that’s a whole other topic.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is very specific, actually. To quote:

2354 Pornography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense. Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of pornographic materials

In other words, it’s sinful. Please note the CCC isn’t giving a proof of why it’s wrong, but a brief note about it. A full proof would go into Thomistic philosophy, beginning from a whole different starting point. Again, PM/separate thread for a more complete explanation.

Anyway, back to the main topic: that’s the Church’s official stance on pornography and, thus, H-scenes. Hope that clarified some stuff.

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#251

When I say that it takes a long time for religion to catch up I’m not saying that it takes a long time for religious institutions to comment on and form opinions (like with birth control). What I’m saying is that those religions that are primarily based off of the teachings of ancient texts will tend to be conservative with respect to changes because the material that they’re based on doesn’t change.

#252

Absolutely, as long as 1) You are respectful (as you seem to have been), as religion is a pretty sensitive topic (but hell, so is sex, heh.), and 2) You keep it relevant to H-scenes or sexual content in general. Its OK if the discussion gets a little off-topic, as all discussions will, but try to keep it focused on how religion affects your or other’s views on H-scenes. Thanks for asking~

1 Like
#253

It’s true that, without a philosophy, making decisions on stuff not covered in infallible religious texts would be difficult. Without a good philosophical basis, though, they wouldn’t have a convincing proof. That’s one reason religions without a strong philosophical doctrine splinter into different sects very easily.

#254

H-Scene in my opinion? Put that H-Scene away from me, because I think some VNs don’t fit to have that scenes.

1 Like
#255

Stumbled upon this topic, and thought that I might want to give my thoughts on it.

I usually approach the topic of sexuality in fiction like how most creative writers do it, by establishing the difference between erotica and pornography. Basically, erotica is, well, portrayal of sex in fiction as part of the story, while pornography is just there for mere titillation, essentially. That wasn’t clear enough, so let’s just say that erotica, when well-written, can be a good way to portray the human side of characters and relationships, and also move forward a story. Sexuality is such a human thing, and having to shy away from such a topic doesn’t really help.

Of course, there are the cringeworthy badly-written sex scenes that needs to be burned down because it’s just that bad. And no, I am not touching any VNs with explicit rape scenes with a 10-foot pole.

I personally only read really few VNs, and of those really few, only two of them had H-scenes on it, namely Katawa Shoujo and Air.

I personally agree to some of their readers that the H-scenes in KS were fairly tasteful. Admittedly I tend to delve into fiction wearing feminist lens, and the thing about KS is that the women involved actually had agency when those scenes happen (even Hanako’s, and it was explained pretty well), and the MC just happens to be responsible enough to care about his partner’s well-being. (Some of the H-CGs I’ve seen on VNDB… looks really painful*.)

As for AIR… I can’t even tell. They don’t even look arousing (the painful looks on their faces ugh), and they are intentionally not even part of its narrative, so it just comes off as just there for the sake of calling their VN an eroge.

As for my say for the H-scenes in VNs, well. I appreciate well-written erotica (found it slightly strange that the ones in KS weren’t much appreciated here, especially considering I found myself liking it… or is it just AIR’s was so bad or I just haven’t read enough VNs?) and it need not be important to the story - it just have to make sense in the narrative. And by making sense, namely they don’t feel that they’re just shoehorned in for the sake of fanservice.

As for porn, as much as I don’t like it (because no feminist would like the idea of using women, or people in general, as mere sexual objects), it will just always be there.

*(This is exactly why I seem to find a hard time looking for a good VN to read: I’m seriously afraid of these kinds of scenes :<)

BTW, regarding H-scenes in VNs mostly portraying under-age characters, I think it boils down to what the age of consent is in its culture - as for Japan, it’s 13 years of age. It seems more complicated than just that though, so I’ll quote Wikipedia on this, though I wouldn’t call it reliable though :stuck_out_tongue:

The Japanese Penal Code sets a minimal age of consent of 13. However, the Children Welfare Act chapter 34 forbids any act of “fornication” (淫行) with children (here defined as anyone under 18 years of age) with prefectures and districts specifying further details in (largely similar) “obscenity ordinances” (淫行条例) like adding exemptions for sex in the context of a sincere romantic relationship (typically determined by parental approval).

Lolicon/shotcon porn is just going too far though. Shows/games portraying that just get away with it because the character design isn’t particularly indicative of their actual age (like how Kudryavka who looks 10 is actually 15). So ugh.

4 Likes
#256

Beware, 1500-word essay incoming.

I was actually just thinking of this topic yesterday, before @BlackHayate02 brought it up again here. I was thinking about how my opinion on H-scenes changed even just over the span of time when this thread was first active, but even more so how it has changed to date. And I think that’s OK: even if I had originally been 100% opposed to H-scenes and was now all for them, it would be OK to change. We are all constantly having new experiences that affect our mindsets on everything in various ways.

Anyways, I was pondering: Why is having sex scenes in the VN medium so controversial, and is often seen as a major barrier for many people against exploring the greatness and depth of the medium, while American TV shows such as Game of Thrones (really great show, by the way) are highly praised and accepted, despite also having gratuitous sex and nudity that doesn’t seem to necessarily further the plot?

I personally think sex and sexuality are a topic that need to be explored in media. They are special, human themes that are relevant to all of our lives, whether we want to face it or not. Hell, usually its the media’s job to shove things we dont necessarily want to face in our, well, face. I appreciate that VNs, so often heavily dealing with romance, recognize, as many other mediums often do, that usually romance involves sex. And yet it all so often seems so… tasteless, or tactless. That fact isn’t limited to VNs, but with VNs specifically the problem seems to stem from the explicivity of the sex. The fact of the matter is, the large majority of H-scenes seem like just porn, even in the rare case where it wasn’t meant to be.

But still, how are H-scenes in VNs different from Kahleesi walking around naked or full-frontally having sex in Game of Thrones? As discussed several times before in the many posts of this topic above, you dont necessarily need to be explicit to portray sex, nudity and their implications, although perhaps explicivity does intensify the themes. Well, the first thing that comes to mind is length. Sex or nude scenes in Game of Thrones, as in most movies and TV shows, are a few seconds long to a minute or so at the most. Most VN H-scenes, however, last for several minutes. Another part is movement. Shows and movies can constantly switch camera angles, repeatedly causing the brain to recalculate and makes the viewer not feel so much as if they were staring; as opposed to VNs, where the reader is continuously focused point blank: it intensifies the image. Lastly, despite being pixelated, there’s no denying that VNs often blatantly show off genitalia, while shows and movies often even make a point of avoiding showing that. Whether or not it is rightful that actually seeing genitalia makes people more uncomfortable than seeing breasts and simply the motion of having sex, it certainly seems to lend itself to being more porn-like. (There’s also the fact that VN images are not real people, they’re drawn. This could possibly make some people more uncomfortable, while others less, so I wont get into that.)

Ok, so thats all well and good. Maybe the fact that it seems like porn affects you, maybe it doesn’t. Either way, it should still be getting the same messages of sex and sexuality across… right? Then why does it feel so… off? Why is this ineffective at conveying the themes? Well, first of all, whether we like it or not, society and culture has shaped our minds to think about sex in a certain way. This extends to porn specifically as well: whether you personally think it’s wrong, or dont care much either way, or whatever, everyone seems to agree on two general things: it should be hidden, and it’s kinda shameful to watch it. Either way, its not really something you… talk about. Thus, when a serious story is chugging along, and suddenly it starts to seem like porn, it’s off-putting. Even if you know its coming, and even if you believe its still trying to convey x message, your mind still thinks, “This isnt supposed to be here.”

The second part is probably level of arousal. Im not really referring to this on the conscious level, although that can be a factor too. I’m referring hormonal instincts here. In your brain, sex = dopamine (otherwise known as the feel-good chemical). Up to a certain point, the longer and more intensely your brain is exposed to sex or the idea of it, the more testosterone, estrogen, and endorphines its going to start pumping. And, if your brain is familiar with porn, this is gonna click even faster, because your brain has already established a pathway for that. The problem is, these hormones tend to take precedent over whatever else from the rest of the experience may be affecting your brain at that moment, due to there instinctual nature. To put it simply, the explicivity can counteract the very themes the scene was trying to convey (again, this is supposing the scene was trying to convey any such themes at all).

So, assuming that at this point you agree with me that H-scenes do certainly seem more like porn than nude/sex scenes in movies and shows, and assuming that you agree with me that we would probably be able to get more out of them if they were more like their TV counterparts, why are we still stuck with what we’ve got? Well, for one, VNs started out all almost all games that were supposed to be porn! And theres still a relatively sizable market for such games today. At this point, a VN with sex in it, whether its for the porn or not, is expected to be conveyed in the traditional way. Are we starting to get away from this, especially with the recent shift toward selling to the Western market? I would say yes, we could be.

However, I think to a certain, though lesser extent, perhaps the audience needs to change a bit as well. Most of us, whether we admit it or not, are probably wary of seeing sex and sexuality expressed in media because it’s taking something private, and making it public. Some people will inevitably say: “Well of course I feel that way! Nobody ever explicitly shows a person going to the bathroom in media!” To which I respond: “Urination and defecation don’t create life!” Aha! Life. Thats the answer. Why are sex and sexuality so important? Life. Why do they deserve to be expressed in our media, which is supposed to be an expression ourselves and our culture? Life. And what are we taking for granted that causes us, as a society, to be so scared of portraying sex and sexuality in a thoughtful way in media? LIFE.

I realize that I’ve gone from seemingly academic and scientific to almost religious and philosophical in the blink of an eye, but really this is what makes this topic so important to me. Life is kinda essential in case you haven’t noticed, and at some point, it is inevitably taken for granted by everyone who has it. In fact, I would love to discuss why the fact that the foremost purpose of sex is to create life is so often ignored in media, especially VNs, but that will definitely have to be saved for another time.

For now, I leave you with this: Sometimes sex is added to media just to make it seem more “mature.” Some intelligent people say that adding it for such reasons and in the usual way is in fact immature. Im not positive I agree with either stance though. Sex and sexuality need to be acknowledged, for sure, and I admire VNs for doing so. But just existing is not good enough, and I am certainly not satisfied with the way it is currently handled. And as much as I’ve rambled today, and before, we havent even begun to touch on all of the facets this subject entails. This isnt something that just changes. It took until halfway through the 20th century just to show a married couple sleeping in the same bed on TV. But I believe it will change, as long as we, not only as consumers, but as a society, allow it to.

By the way, if your interested, Extra Credits has done a video on Sex in Video Games, which is, as usual, thoughtful and well expressed. Its probably very relevant to how sex and sexuality are portrayed in VNs, although maybe to a lesser extent in your typical video game. Check it out here if you’re interested.

4 Likes
#257

Great post. I don’t have the energy to write up a worthy response, even though the topic is one I would love to write on eventually. I just want to add that another point I rarely see addressed is what the actual writing of the H scene is like. Due to my own personal convictions, I almost always skip the scenes so I can’t hold any informed opinion, but we are talking about visual novels. Thus, it stands to reason that if we’re discussing the appropriateness of such scenes, that we should look at the actual text content as well.

I am sure that there are a bunch of scenes that can be described as no better than fetish pandering. At the same time, I suspect there are scenes which actually hold some degree of writing quality. Saya no Uta is kind of “the” example that’s been brought up even in this thread numerous times. The text during sex scenes aren’t really about the sex so much as they are about the protagonist’s mental state. The writing is absolutely helpful to the theme and plot of the story. Even if you removed all the images and explicit sexual language, there would still be important text about his thought process, and the actual sex does, arguably, serve to bolster this storytelling.

Aside from thematically, the text can still be completely erotic without being pandering. Text that is more about the relationship between the characters should be more accepted than text that is purely describing bodily functions. Are the characters saying anything even mildly important or are they just being perverts? Does the text serve to show a progression in their relationship or is it just a self-inserting scene about sex? A perfect example that comes to my mind is Tsurioto. If it weren’t for the images, you almost wouldn’t notice it was a sex scene because the character chemistry and bantering felt exactly like any other conversation between them except…sex. Like yeah sex, but the text was clearly about the same characters I had grown to love. Heck, I was even laughing at some parts because that’s how their relationship is always like. Contrast that to something where characterization disappears and the writing is just depicting sexual acts that in reality could be between any characters from any story. The difference in quality is clear, and I think a major problem with VNs is most of them are not quality writing. Unfortunately, as Yerian alludes to, the Japanese market usually doesn’t care about this because most of the customers just want their porn so why bother changing? But hey, I’ve barely read a handful so maybe I’m wrong.

Just my 2 cents. I know I didn’t even begin to cover every aspect I could.

3 Likes
#258

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I guess the gist of what you’re trying to say is: We, as an audience, should be more accepting of sex and sexuality as it is an important aspect of life. However, the way these themes are portrayed in Visual Novels make it appear as if it is nothing more than smut. This does tie into @BlackHayate02’s idea about the difference between erotica and pornography, and I think @Kaze made a great follow-up as well.

Perhaps H-scenes can be more than just porn; it’s just that nobody writes it as such. @Yerian gave the example of the Game of Thrones series, and after having finished the first book of that, I can give a comparison. The depiction of those scenes in the book are, well, explicit. VERY explicit. At the same time, they often do not add into the story or characterization. They are, however, short, many of which last only a paragraph or two. While your imagination may run wild, the shortness of these depictions make it less capable of being fap material, and more likely to be something that one can view with a straight mind. I’m not a specialist, but perhaps the shortness of this prevents the flow of dopamine into your brain.

So how would an H-scene in a VN fair if it was just as explicit, but only 5 minutes long, and with, at most, 2 CGs? I don’t think any company has ever attempted this sort of thing. When an H-scene happens, they usually go all out. It would be an interesting experiment, either way.

#259

Ok so while I have not read this entire thread (I need to sleep and theres 257 comments) I just want to know, why can’t eroge just have a choice to turn off h-scenes and whatever erotic content? While I understand that many people like the h-scenes, I personally don’t and nor do a lot of us. I played a bit Katawa Shoujo and they had an option that basically removed the h-scenes. And even if you say “the h-scene pushes the plot forward” then can they not just black it out when you don’t want to see it? Like you can still see the text so you still know what’s going on but you don’t have to actually see it. Maybe I’m sounding stupid cuz I barely know eroge but I just want to know why can’t we be given the choice?
(also if this came up in a comment I did not get to reading then just tell me and I’ll delete this post)

#260

Because japan has this mentality of “if you know an item comes with something you dislike, then you shouldn’t buy it in the first place”. The same goes for food, where “hold the ketchup” on a cheeseburger is something that people don’t openly accept

#261

I feel like you already do have a choice it is called holding down skip, I do it from time to time even. Plus they make console/non eroge versions. Those options seem good enough for me…Plus what pepe said, I think that applies to every type of game to an extent. If you don’t like ultra violent games don’t buy them… should Assassins Creed have a reduced blood/violence mode? no…Some games do have options like this, but it is rare…Well as eroge is coming to the west options for on or off h-scenes are being made,it is something the west wants.