General Anime Discussion

Off-Topic
#410

I should be sleeping know (gotta wake up early tomorrow), but I needed to write this as soon as I could. I’m going to talk about a certain anime, called “Shigatsu wa Kimi no Uso”.

I started watching this show because my classmate asked me to do so. In exchange, she watched both seasons of Oregairu. In the beginning of Kimiuso, I had mixed thoughts about it. Some scenes were intense and remarkable, but there were too much jokes (whose placement was terrible as well) and the cuts were horribly abrupt, not giving me enough time to ‘connect’ with certain scenes. Plus, the pacing was all messed up…

This show is a favorite of many people, also seen as a masterpiece by some. Well, I do not share such opinion. Throughout the show, I found a considerably big number of flaws. However, I’m not here to talk about them. Despite the fact that I think Kimiuso is far from a perfect series, it has left quite a great impact on me. I do not regret watching it at all. Upon watching episode 19 or so, I was really bothered by the anime flaws, and my expectation was that it would turn out to be a classic waste of potential. But then I started seeing things from a different perspective. I could finally understand the anime, and what I’m going to do here is explaining how I see this anime.

Shigatsu wa Kimi no Uso is [spoiler], first and foremost, a very sad anime. And when I say sad, I don’t mean tear-jerking or emotional, like Little Busters!, for example. What I mean is depressing. It is not an uplifting anime. As a ‘teenage drama’ I expected idealism and optimism. But instead of it, I got a sad, cynical, bitter and pessimistic anime.

I did not shed a tear during the anime. I cried after it. And I still expect myself to cry more. You know, many people do not like the Tsubaki subplots and the focus on Emi and Takeshi when it should be focusing on Kousei or Kaori. But to tell the truth, those were some of my favorite things of Kimiuso. That and the Aiza imouto subplot. And I think they played a vital role. Just think about it: each of them had a wish (or wishes), and they did everything in their power to get it. For Kousei, it was Kaori’s love. For Kaori, it was a lot of things, one of them being playing again with Kousei. For Emi and Takeshi, it was winning the competition and defeating Kousei. For the Aiza imouto, it was reaching her brother. For Tsubaki, it was Kousei’s love. But wait… Did any of them get what they wanted? The answer for all of them is definitely a no. Kousei never told Kaori his feelings, Kaori died before she could play again with him, Emi and Takeshi (as the anime strongly implies) were defeated by Kousei, Tsubaki could never be loved back by Kousei and the Aiza sister’s presentation only got her brother more furious at Kousei.

Shigatsu wa Kimi no Uso is about the bitterness of life. It’s telling us that we all want things we can’t have, thus we suffer. Sure, we can have some of our wishes granted, but deep inside we know what we want the most will never be reached by us. Victory does not go to the one who wants it the most. If it was like that, Emi or Takeshi would’ve won, instead of Kousei. It does not go to the ones who try their hardest, either. You try, and try, and give your best, and you fail. Life is just unfair, and we simply have to accept that. And the most depressing part is that we all keep trying to achieve the unachievable. Like, by the end of the anime, Tsubaki is still trying to get Kousei… I’m sorry for her…

Everyone… In their self-centered world view… So selfishly wishing for their own happiness… And projecting it into something… Outside of their reach…

Probably the most depressing piece of fiction I’ve seen. Please notice that I’m not saying I agree with the anime’s message. Kimiuso just really let me down. I don’t think I’ll give up all my wishes, but the loss of all of them might not be as distant as I thought it was.[/spoiler]

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#411

Your Lie in April is a seriously depressing show huhu.

[spoiler]But if you think about it, it’s not that they didn’t get what they want completely. Kousei may not have been able to confess to Kaori, but Kaori did so to him. Tsubaki may not have been able to share her feelings to Kousei, but they’re still pretty close to each other. Emi and Takeshi may not have been able to surpass Kousei, but they were able to impress him, and also became very skilled musicians themselves. Nagi may not have been able to reach her brother, but he still watched. And lastly, Kaori may not have been able to survive before getting what she wanted, but she was able to before, but more importantly, she died struggling for it.

Maybe the story wanted to tell us about struggling – that the end may not be worth the struggle, but we struggle, anyway, and sometimes, we also get things from it that may not be the goal itself. Kaori knew that she was most likely not going to survive before being able to play again with Kousei, but she struggled anyway, because she felt that that’s what musicians (and probably human beings) would do.[/spoiler]

Oh no, I might be getting things wrong here. T.T

BTW, I like your interpretation. A lot of reviews tend to get so focused on whether or not a show’s good or bad based on how complex the plot and characterization is and how good or bad the OST, voice acting, visuals, pacing etc. is, but is completely missing on the more important part of it all: “what does the story wanted to tell us? What’s the point of it all?” I mean, nothing wrong with those kind of reviews, but stuff like the story’s message became important to me after taking a literature and a film class. XD

#412

My biggest complaint was actually the result of mixing those things. The visuals, voice acting and ost don’t match what the story is trying to tell, and that can offend a viewer.

1 Like
#413

I forgot that those stuff are vital in stroytelling too. Oops. O.O

But yeah, there are times when those things happen, and usually the result of poor direction.

#414

Yup, that’s what I chalked it up to. The manga would probably handle the story in a way I can appreciate, but it clearly wasn’t the adaptation I’d have wanted. It seemed like the director knew what he could do, but not when he should use it.

#415

I’m glad to see you join our side :kyouevil:

And yes, while I do agree that KimiUso is by no means a perfect show; the pacing in the latter half, for example, kind of goes all over the place, plus the monologues get too grandiose at times; but it’s the fact that it’s so depressing that I like it so much.

It’s a very bittersweet story, and as you say, it shows that in life, you don’t get everything you want just because you work hard towards it. But, on the other hand, you also have to stop and smell the roses. While flailing around and working towards your goals, you might end up forgetting what is there right beside you and neglect the chance to appreciate them.

So, in the end, it gives a very good message all while remaining a work that is just all so beautiful to watch. It gives us the sense of, despite the world being a horrible place, there is still so much beauty to be found in it. So when you say:

I thought the stark contrast is what makes it what it is, and without it, the message would have changed entirely. Had the visuals, voice acting and tone been somber all throughout, the message would have been lost and it would have just caused people to only brood over the negativity of the story.

Say what you want to say, but I thought the directing of the adaptation was just top-notch. I’ve read a few chapters of the manga, both before and after watching the corresponding anime episodes, and I felt the impact was just so much stronger in the anime.

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#416

I’m not saying it should be somber. I’m saying it shouldn’t suck at being whatever kind of happy it was trying to be. The contrast you mention is one of the reasons why I liked PlaMemo. In PlaMemo the negativity was there, but the show spent it’s time episodically going through the happier times. It had good use of silence, it used a lot of contrasting visuals to show how multifaceted characters and situations were, and it had a charming pastel palette that was bright enough to draw attraction, but wasn’t out of place in a darker setting.

KimiUso didn’t do that though. Instead of being like “hey, let’s be cheerful and enjoy the moment while we can, okay?” it said “wow, you’ve experienced a negative emotion at some time in your life? How pathetic. Here, let me shine this torch on your face.” PlaMemo was sweet, KimiUso was offensive.

#417

This is a very very common complaint about the show (especially early on) and it just bugs me how people take offense at the plight of fictional characters…

In the long run, we are shown how Kaori’s pushy nature doesn’t actually work for Arima in the long run, and it takes a whole different sort of growth that helped him get over his inability to play

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#418

Well, about that… Yes, we get things that are not the goal itself, but the truth is we don’t value those things. Kousei did read Kaori’s confession, but that was after she died, when he couldn’t be with her anymore. Tsubaki was always Kousei’s friend. But if she was happy with that, she would never have confessed to him. The others’ situation is the same… I get what you mean, but one of our flaws is that we are never happy with what we can have. You see, there was a line from Kaori’s letter that really stuck to me. It was when she said she lied saying she liked Watari so she could get close to Kousei. What if she hadn’t lied? Maybe Kousei would have never fallen for her. His wish was something he thought was outside his reach. The girl who liked his friend. I’m not saying that he liked her specifically because she liked someone else, but maybe if she said she liked him from the beginning, he wouldn’t be interested in her. That’s what so painful. That we don’t want what we can have; we only want the difficult, close to impossible things. Thus, we suffer.

Well, there is also this one thing I think Shigatsu was saying (that I presume to be what you’re saying): other people exist. Like, we get so much focused on our own goals that we tend to forget about other people, who have goals and struggle and suffer just like us, even though they’re all around us. And personally, I still think that, despite showing why things are the way they are and how to fix them, the anime is very pessimistic. That’s what makes it so sad. For me, it’s saying something like: if people did that they wouldn’t suffer that much, but that’s never gonna happen. And I could also say that the anime is kinda meta about that. The viewer will probably empathize with someone (for me I think it was Emi the most, I empathized with all of the characters to some point, though) and will root for that person to get what he/she wants. But in the end, even the viewer will be heartbroken. Because no matter who he chooses, the viewer will never see that person’s wish granted. And then, the viewer will suffer as well.

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#419

Not really a fan of Shigatsu myself. It does so many things that are completely destructive to its own themes that it drives me up a damn wall.

One of the biggest things here is the show constantly force feeding you what you’re supposed to be thinking. The characters talk at length about what the music is expressing. The incessant monologuing is constantly throwing in your face what the character is feeling, and nothing is left for you to see or hear for yourself. Just for instance - [spoiler] when Kousei and Nagi are playing in episode 18 (which is actually one of the better performances in this regard) - when Kousei first amps up the pace of the music it’s prefaced by a monologue of his own - followed by a shot of various audience members thinking “OH THE SOUND’S DIFFERENT HAHAHAHA” and then Nagi internally freaking out.

The problem is that all of this can be communicated without obnoxious monologuing - obviously you can hear the change in pace of music for yourself, and you can see Nagi feeling the pressure of the sudden change. Her facial expression changes and she’s visibly distraught by it - and despite all this, the show STILL distracts from the music with this blatantly idiotic form of narration. [/spoiler]

If music can express emotions without words - if the passion the characters put into playing their instruments is so important, if Kousei’s loss of that same passion so profound - then why the hell is this show constantly ramming what’s going on in my face? I’m no longer focused on the body language or passion behind the playing - I’m focused on the obnoxious monologuing. I’m no longer listening to the music, I’m listening to the stupid amounts of exposition being dumped on me over the music.

None of the characters themselves really do the themes any favors either - most of them are just plot devices with all of their relevance tied entirely around Kousei, like he’s somehow the literal center of the universe. The only exceptions in this regard are Takeshi and Emi, who experience something akin to actual character development as they move from simply wanting to one-up Kousei to wanting to be great musicians in their own right. In fact, I’d actually much rather see an entire show focusing on this particular subplot regarding this trio, because it was the one time Shigatsu was actually thematically connecting with me. Neither character got what they originally wanted - but they still clearly grew as people.

THIS is the kind of story I wanted when I was watching the show. I wanted to see the characters become so much more than they were at the start despite enduring heavy loss - and it just didn’t happen. I honestly kinda wish Kaori had actually died sometime at the midpoint of the series, with the show focusing on Kousei overcoming it with his reignited passion for music, and maybe some support from the silly caricatures that the rest of the characters are. Of course, it’s an adaptation, but I think the story would’ve benefited strongly thematically from such a direction.

As it stands, all I got out from it was “lol life is shitty dealwiddit”

#420

This was a big problem I had with the series, as well as the fact that these characters were like 13-14 years old, and yet seemed to have the intelligence and vocabulary of some descendent of Aristotle.

While I respected the fact that monologues were effective in conveying emotional information and introspective dialogue… A lot of these scenes felt bizarre, and were also usually followed by horribly placed comedic tone shifts which broke the atmosphere more times than I care to remember.

tl;dr too much tell, not enough show, and clumsy control of tone.

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#421

While you’re definitely not wrong in saying that, my reaction to that monologuing was different. Maybe it’s because, before they even said what was going on with the music, I could already feel the changes that were happening. Thus, when the characters describe the music, they simply echoed my thoughts, which I kinda liked.

Then again, I remember the last episode where they have arima and kaori do this extremely melancholic duet, with no dialogue whatsoever, and I thought it the most beautiful piece in the entire series. Perhaps the other performances would have been better off without all that monologue.

Isn’t that exactly what happened, though? Like, sure, shit happens in the end, but all the characters get stronger by the end of it…

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#422

The only character that you might be able to make that inference about is Kousei, and then it’s still pretty debatable. Any development he had in that regard is basically undermined by the fact that the series is totally over before you get to see any of his progress in action.

Tsubaki and Watari are the same by the end of the series - there’s no reason to infer that Tsubaki moved on past anything and Watari was never really a character to begin with. Kaori herself certainly didn’t receive any sort of huge developments in character. Most of the side characters just distracted from the main narrative, and not necessarily in ways that significantly contributed to the themes. The show could’ve easily gotten its point across in 12 or 13 episodes, if you cut out the monologueing and b-plots that don’t really move anything forward. Maybe then some of the non-Kousei characters could’ve got some decent characterization.

#423

Well I think the fact that he can actually play piano, as opposed to being totally unable to do so in the beginning of the series; even going so far as to being able to teach Nagi speaks for itself.

I also personally disagree with Tsubaki and Watari

Tsubaki: Despite Tsubaki not being able to get into arima’s pants heart, she was able to learn exactly how to support him, whether it be as friends or potential lovers. Her previous personality that started out as a tsundere-ish girl, fearful of having arima taken away from her, has now changed into one that is fully capable of supporting arima.

Watari: His growth is a lot more subtle, but I believe that the fact that he genuinely developed feelings for Kaori changed him from being a playboy who doesn’t take women seriously into, well, a man, who could probably handle the strains of a long-term relationship. They’re about to start high school, after all, and him continuing to be a playboy would just end up with a lot of disdain from his peers in the long run.

I used to think that, especially when they introduced the Nagi side-story but… Isn’t that fine? All the side stories had what I see as valuable messages, significantly different from that of arima’s, and the monologuing allowed for more introspective into the characters’ emotions; which is something we don’t get much of in anime (but see a lot more often in VNs).

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#424

I did thought there were a lot of side stories that distracted from the main narrative, but I liked Tsubaki and Nagi a lot (actually, I liked a lot of KimiUso characters more than Kaori herself, but it’s more because Kaori didn’t stick to me as much as the other characters did), so I didn’t mind. XD

#425

Kousei was always capable of playing piano. It was never something he was incapable of doing at the start of the series, and even as early as his first performance with Kaori we can see that he is still fully capable of playing. The only thing that ever stops him is the weird “can’t hear his own playing” thing, which I always just interpreted as being some sort of metaphor for his past traumas overwhelming him whenever he starts getting into the groove like he used to.

Anyways, there’s not really a point in the series where Kousei picks up the reins himself. He is entirely passive throughout the entire series and never contributes to his own development, which I feel just undermines the authenticity of his character progression as a whole. He’s just constantly doing what someone else wants him to do.

This is especially odd when his raison d’être throughout the show dies, and he shrugs it off relatively well on the basis of the character development that was in no way his choice and entirely due to this one character. Naturally this event happens in the very end so there’s not a whole lot of impact to explore, which is why it doesn’t make any sense to me that Kaori dies at the end rather than at the middle.

The whole bit where they try to redeem Kousei’s mother is also insanely lazy and forced. It’s ok guys, she only completely destroyed her sons mental health so she could live through his success, but he’s real good at piano so it’s ok. This was just a really weird way of finalizing Kousei overcoming his trauma, and was not well done at all.

I guess it wasn’t accurate to say that Kousei doesn’t develop throughout the series, but just that none of his development felt believable or impactful for me. I think it’s a little stretchy to use a skill he always had as an indication of his development. I’d just like to reiterate that I think there’s a lot of lost potential in regards to how he might’ve handled Kaori’s death, specifically.

As a point of comparison - imagine if Clannad had ended with Sanae giving Tomoya a bit of a pep talk, he goes and picks Ushio up, and they live happily ever after. Yeah, he “developed” and “dealt with Nagisa’s death”, but we never would have seen the effects of that or the more intimate parts of his struggle.

I don’t really like the implications of Tsubaki’s development completely revolving around Kousei. I don’t interpret it as good character development that Tsubaki’s existence goes from “hopeless childhood friend who exists to create a love triangle” to “hopeless childhood friend who exists to support MC-kun”. This doesn’t indicate any change in her personality as a whole, but rather just her treatment of one specific character. We learn nothing about how her larger outlook has changed, or how her interactions with the other characters has changed, in part because she never had any important non-kousei interactions to begin with.

As far as Watari is concerned, that is mostly conjecture, because we never actually really see any of the effects the series had on his general outlook and interactions. The dude was never in focus, and pretty much solely existed to complicate the romance situation throughout the show. There’s not any direct evidence of some huge change in his character, which is odd in a show that hadn’t used show, don’t tell at any point before.

I guess the side characters are up for debate. I’ve already established that Takeshi and Emi were actually my favorite characters in the show, and indeed that particular subplot actually communicated the themes of the show rather well. That doesn’t mean that their screentime couldn’t have been used to bolster the actual meat and remedy some of the issues that I had with it. Naturally, the same also applies to the Nagi side-story.

#426

That’s essentially what I meant by “incapable of playing piano”. It’s not just something he refuses to do, but an actual mental state that renders him incapable of playing the piano once, as you say, he gets into the groove. It’s not a metaphor, as it has been repeatedly stated it being an actual mental trauma that he had suffered from.

How about when he finally makes the decision to enroll in a musical high school? Which essentially means despite him not fully getting over his mental trauma of playing, he realizes that he still wants to dedicate his life to music. I honestly can’t see how that cannot be considered as authentic character progression.

Okay firstly, it is not implied, in any way, that he shrugs it off well. I imagine that his mourning was shown heavily off-screen, and it is something that we, as viewers, have no need to see. Secondly, assuming, for arguments sake, that the basis of his character development was not his own (and ignoring everything I’ve said previously), why does that mean his development should disappear after her death? Development is development,and real development sticks with you even after the source disappears.

I think the whole point of that scene was not to show him getting good at piano, but to show that, despite all the terrible things she did, his mother was still his mother. I’m surprised you never brought that up

While you are correct in that there is much lost potential in that matter, it was, in no way, the point of the story. The entire point of the story was to see how Arima develops from the beginning, a piano prodigy who is no longer able to play an entire piece due to his mental trauma, into a more mature person who, regardless of skill, not only regains his ability to play, but looks at music and his passion from a more mature perspective. Everything in the series helps him towards this; that includes his rivalries with Emi and Takeshi, his relationship with Tsubaki, his tutoring of Nagi, and yes, most importantly Kaori’s health slowly deteriorating, which we are shown that arima relates to his own mother’s death.

You seem to be forgetting the fact that she had that whole thing with her senpai, who she even tried going out with. It showed how she matured into taking relationships more seriously and being more honest with herself (which, let’s face it, tsundere-like characters are absolutely horrible at). The example I mentioned is only one of the many intricate forms of development that her character undergoes, not only towards other characters but, yes, as you say, on her greater outlook in life.

I did say his development was subtle, so I concede in that point. It seems to me that he is, after all, a more minor character than Tsubaki, Emi and even Takeshi, so I’m not surprised that the series didn’t give him much focus.

From everything you (and others) have been saying so far, it seems that a lot of the show’s messages seemed to have missed the point with your interpretations. A lot of opinions I’ve heard have had very general views of how the characters acted and why they acted that certain way, and that being the case, I’m not even surprised that many did not appreciate it.

I’m definitely not the kind of person to say “you’re just too dumb to understand the plot” and would rather find fault in the direction; if the viewer can’t figure it out by himself, then that just means that the story didn’t lead them the right way. Perhaps one reason is that they seemed to peg Kaori as someone more important than she actually is, perhaps to invoke a sense of pity from the viewers/readers, thus distracting from the internal development of the other characters, and linking her to everything else that happens throughout the story. Frankly, if there’s any character that doesn’t develop in the entire story, it’s her :stuck_out_tongue:

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#427

I strongly agree with one of your points, but

Hey, she did have a character development, as much as she didn’t stood out to me as a compelling character. After being able to perform with Kousei, she was already giving in. And it was understandable, considering her deteriorating health. But being able to hear Kousei’s performance, she was inspired to struggle even more. It was small, but she was able to choose to fight even if it was for the little time, either to share a moment with music once again, or with someone she love, for the matter. She didn’t succeed, and I think she was aware of this, but she chose to fight. And that was when she already gave up before.

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#428

While I do agree with you, I feel as if the last episode implied that she has been doing that ever since before the start of the series. Perhaps that was only amplified through her performances with Arima, or perhaps it became more genuine. Either way, with that, I take back what I say in that she didn’t develop in the entire story :yahaha:

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#429

Isn’t that the entire point though ? Because [spoiler] Kosei is such a scared little kid who doesn’t have his friends inspiring him or pushing him, Kaori comes in and inspires him. She knew that she wasn’t going to live long, but wanted to inspire and push Kosei to his limit because she believed in him. It was an obvious reason why she didn’t develop as explicitally as the rest. Kaori was always positive and never gave up. She was someone who (even when hospitalized), still got the courage to inspire Kosei. He needed that person that inspired him and pushed him. That’s what Kaori was.

When you’re about to die, and have known for a while, and have accepted that fate, there’s really no reason for character development. This is especially true in Kaori’s case because since her ordinary self is someone who’s positive and full of life, why would she want to change herself ? [/spoiler]

There wasn’t really a need for her to have the development in her case. You can argue that not having development in a story like this is unnatural, but you can also argue that in Kaori’s position, there’d be no need for development. All for the story, interactions with the others, and the mental emotions of the character herself.

Oh and that other girl with shirt brown hair. Blegh. Irrelevant melodrama maker.

On that note… Has anyone seen Stein Gates ? Is it a good show ? (Seeing as it’s rated highly on MAL).