CLANNAD - Kyou Fujibayashi Route & Character Discussion

Key Discussion
#64

Whenever I think of Kai, the first phrase that comes to mind is ‘executive meddling’. I don’t think it’s uncommon to initially assume that Kai is a story executive for VisualArt’s, although he does have a sizable amount of eroge credited to his name as well. But when it comes to Key, most of the time he is only credited as either a co-writer or a scenario planner. It’s actually quite surprising he has written whole routes in CLANNAD, among which are the Fujibayashi sisters.

So what does that have to do with Kyou as a character or her route in particular? Well, from first impressions alone, Kai has a very different style from Maeda and Suzumoto. If I were to describe Kyou’s route in one word, it would be ‘safe’. It seems to me as if Kai analyzed the general formula for how dating sims are written and tried to combine that with some of the elements from other routes. It feels like the most generic and out-of-place (in terms of themes, anyway) route in CLANNAD so far, but that’s not to say it did its job horribly.

Kyou as a character is written fairly well, although outside of her route it would be quite hard to think so. Truthfully, when I finished reading Kotomi, I didn’t think I was ever going to like her in her own route. However, I’ve witnessed time and time again how a good route is often the deciding factor in overturning first impressions, and Kyou is yet another shining example. Every action she took was for the sake of her younger sister, to the point of forgetting herself and her own desires. Since TomoyaSteve (and by extension, the reader) is drawn to Ryou initially, it allows him to understand exactly what trials she’s going through when everything starts going wrong, which creates parallel between him and her.

The biggest issue I have with achieving this parallel and the route’s eventual resolution is how Kai chooses to get there. The route itself has a long buildup, so much so that it grows boring after a while due to Steve’s indecision on the matter. In addition, Sunohara’s efforts to help Steve fix things feels a little out-of-character for him, despite Kai’s otherwise-admirable attempts to keep him close to how Maeda intended his character to be. The ending, particularly where Kyou assumes Ryou’s guise, felt predictable, but even so was the best part of the route. To clarify, I have no problem with the resolution, just with how Kai chose to get there.

This route made me feel so many emotions at once: anger, warmth, frustration, sorrow, laughter, fear and relief. I feel so worn out that perhaps it’s hard to tell if I actually like this route or not. This route definitely isn’t one of my favorites, but I certainly enjoy and admire it for what it tried to accomplish. I feel a little more comfortable knowing that Kappei’s route isn’t in the wrong hands…unless I’m wrong. We’ll just have to see…

By the way, short-hair Kyou is so cute~ :3

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#65

Hmmm while I can see what you mean when you say generic (it is a very romance-centric route), I don’t think I can say it is as out-of-place as, well, every other route. Of course that all depends on what you think the themes of CLANNAD are. I did say some time ago how I thought CLANNAD was a microcosm of life, and, in that sense, love, dating, and jealousy are all parts of life that we will experience one time or another.

Frankly, I quite loved this long buildup. Maybe it is just me, because I felt the same exact way in a certain-other-route in Rewrite when everybody else was not so particular about it… But I think the purpose of this long buildup is, as you say:

And I think that is where the quality of this route shines: in making you feel all these things. The fact that it could make you feel those will add more impact to you and, in my opinion, helps the impact of the route attach itself more to you. And that is the value of this route, and why I love it so much.

P.S.

Hoo boy wait til you get to Sunohara route, then I wanna know if you can say the same thing again :wink:

#66

Gotta come here to defend my all-time favorite key route, heh

No, nobody can really. That isn’t Tomoya. The real Tomoya would do the alternate choice: make Kyou trip while chasing her, and have her rip up the piece of paper she wanted to show him.

But hey, guess who it was that made the choice to go ahead and try out dating Ryou. Because that sure wasn’t Tomoya who pressed that button :stuck_out_tongue:

I’ll actually raise you another argument, and say that the very first scene of CLANNAD, with Tomoya pushing Nagisa to go up the hill was simply too out-of-character for him. Of course, I believe there is a reason for that, as there is a reason for Tomoya even thinking to try things out with Ryou. But that delves into heavy post after story CLANNAD meta knowledge.

Yes they were quite cringe-worthy. But, unlike most other cringe-worthy scenes in anime, you could feel the same cringe that Tomoya was feeling. You could feel the immense guilt that he felt as he was doing things that he knew was absolutely wrong. The cringe was shared between the character and the reader, and I think writing that is capable of doing this is nothing short of amazing.

You might be a bit mistaken with this. He is venting his stress by making romantic jokes towards Ryou. Stuff like joking that they should kiss or they should go to a hotel. He vents his stress in much of the same way during the common route. This is classic dick-ish tomoya right there.

The one who is actually indulging him in his jokes is Ryou herself, because of her desperation to keep Tomoya as her own. This leads to a point where Tomoya feels way too guilty because of these jokes, and we as readers share this guilt. At least, I shared this guilt.

That was a very sad thing and, I think, one of the highlights of the route. Of course nobody would believe her, but it was a move driven out of desperation; desperation to not hurt her sister and to not jeopardize her relationship with Tomoya. She thought that Sunohara was just dumb enough to go with the flow. Too bad Sunohara is too much of a bro

She was a victim here. Very much so. A victim of circumstance. A victim of being too involved with people too scared to accept their own feelings (like Kyou). And more importantly, a victim of her own desperation to cling on to something to make her feel better about herself.

Have you every tried talking about your own feelings? Because, fuck me, that shit’s tough. Especially when you’re an insecure wreck like Tomoya is, wow.

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#67

Oh, when I said “indulging in his romance with Ryou”, I meant scenes such as when he french kisses his in the midst of his internal conflict. I’ll concede a couple dirty jokes spiraling out of control was more Ryou than him anyways.

I believe Clannad establishes that in spite of his delinquency, Tomoya dives head first into his interactions with others as a way of distancing himself from his own life and problems. That’s why I believe he decides to give Nagisa a push forward in the prologue of the game. In most routes, Tomoya shows a strong sense of altruism and a firm desire to make other people happy.

Although this itself might be a subject of controversy, I’ve never seen Tomoya as much of a self-insert. I feel like most of his actions in the other routes are ultimately in-character to key traits he has as a person, namely his altruism, his trollishness, and his determined nature. When the route is composed in such a way that Tomoya acts so against what I believe his character is, I find that a pretty big problem.

I will also concede that Tomoya’s not the kind of guy to talk about his feelings. But as someone who’s rather conscientious of his emotional state in the amount of time he spends in internal monologue, I feel this would have been nipped in the bud much earlier.

A more minor nitpick, in the bad ends of this route, students can theoretically catch Kyou and Tomoya kissing in the park and assume their dating, even when they don’t. Ryou’s route sidesteps this by having no one see, with more people latching on to them kissing in the arcade. Since peer pressure is what sets the uncertain tone of the second half, I’m kind of surprised someone discovering them is rather fluid in that way.

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#68

That’s actually controversial? Most here agreed on him being very much his own character, up to and including any choices, myself included, so I just assumed that’s how it is seen by the majority. That is also the reason why some complained that Tomoya isn’t voiced in Clannad itself.

#69

True. My bad, then.

#70

All of what you say, I feel, can be applied in very much the same way to his relationship with Ryou. He decides to try out a relationship with her as a way to distance himself and forget about his problems. He is also altruistic in a sense by sacrificing his own feelings to appease both Ryou and Kyou.

While my words might have been confusing, I don’t exactly consider him a self-insert either. I do push that the choices in the game are made by the player, I don’t see the player as a self-insert to Tomoya… I see the player more as an arbitrary being, (post-CLANNAD spoilers) existing in the illusionary world. This player views the daily life of Tomoya and subtly controls Tomoya’s direction in the main game, as a means to help obtain light orbs. I’m sorry, I have a very weird way of looking at the lore of Clannad, but I feel like it fits everything else in the game.

So while, yes, you are right in that:

I feel like there are those rare cases, maybe once every other route, where he does something strange… I told you I feel like him giving Nagisa that push was out of character, but I answered your thoughts on that above.

Man, there are just soooo many stories that deal with this, and I personally think that it’s much much easier said than done. And even if it was easier done, then we wouldn’t have much of a story, then would we? :stuck_out_tongue:

Heeeey congrats, you’ve found the one thing I dislike about this route! Since I put big importance into the choice mechanism of all VNs, having this change-of-events be something not directly related to your choices does kinda tick me off :komue:

#71

I’m not sure, though. Considering his actions in Tomoyo’s route, I’m inclined to say that Tomoya is generally a more long-term thinker who’s empathetic of the people around him. I’m basically repeating myself here, but I think he would realize that appeasing both girls in the way he does is, in reality, a cruel and manipulative thing to do. Ultimately, I’ll have to agree to disagree, because I just feel Tomoya wouldn’t treat something like romance so flippantly. I think it’s him buying into Kyou’s wishful thinking in a way I don’t think he would. I mean, he’s rather assertive with Kyou when she meddles in other’s business in Kappei’s route, so why would he kind of let her win here?

#72

I definitely can’t agree with that… In Tomoyo’s route he just decides to break up with Tomoyo because of the social pressure of their situation. If he really thought about the long term, then he’d realize that that wouldn’t be the right solution to her long-term issues.

Everything that Tomoya does in the early parts of CLANNAD he does because he is weak. He is insecure about his own emotions and finds an escape through the different routes. Even in Nagisa’s route he chooses to move out of his own home instead of confronting his own father.

So when you say:

He would not realize it because, again, he is very weak. His entire thought process during the route is that he does not want to end up hurting Ryou, and even if he manages to break up with Ryou, he fears that Kyou would not accept him. His entire thought process is driven by his fear to hurt other people and fear to not be accepted. And I think that fear and insecurity fits Tomoya to a T. He is not a long-term thinker, and neither is he very smart about his relationships. I personally think you give him too much credit.

Sure, he also does that. When you choose not to pursue Ryou, he tells her off. A lot of it is anchored in the choice mechanic, again. And because you do not have this choice in the Kappei route, it fails to become more believable. But analyzing his own insecurities makes me believe that he might not even have been assertive to Kyou in kappei’s route. We just don’t see that because we do not go down that timeline.

#73

I will agree that Tomoya is quite emotionally unstable(Big After Story spoilers) Even after spending a long time with Nagisa, he ultimately isn’t a strong enough person and hasn’t matured enough to take care of his daughter on his own.

I do see your points, but I’m just not convinced. Call it stubbornness if you’d like, but I find it hard to stomach that Tomoya would be this indecisive and cruel, even with his insecurities. It doesn’t help that he’s quite slow to take the romance route in other stories and doesn’t broach that possiblity until he starts having feelings for the girl.

I appreciate this discussion, though, it’s been very enlightening. :slight_smile:

#74

Well I can see how it would be hard to stomach at least. Just one last thing I want to point out is that Tomoyo is in no way, as you put it,

He does not wish anything ill on Kyou nor Ryou. He simply wants the best outcome for everyone but is too afraid to take the step in the right direction. At least, until Sunohara gives him some perspective

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#75

I will concede he’s not malicious by any means. But I still believe that Tomoya is simply too conscientious to let this situation stand by as long as it did. Sympathizing with him and Kyou was extremely difficult at various times in this route, even with the revelation later on that Kyou was somewhat exploited into helping Ryou get together with Tomoya.

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#76

Maaaaaaaaaaaan I don’t think any other route in Key (barring a certain route in Rewrite) made me feel so frustrated and uncomfortable going through it like Kyou route did. I feel so bad choosing to do things against Ryou. And I feel so bad for Kyou sacrificing herself like that.

Which basically means I like this route a lot.

And which is why I’ll begin with the stuff I don’t like about this: reading it can get tedious as heck. Maybe standard galge routines aren’t my thing haha. Also, Ryou’s stutter-y lines gives me a secondhand sore throat. Not like I dislike it much. And the voice acting for Kyou in the rain scene is so dry. She’s supposed to be crying, but her voice don’t seem to reflect it well enough. It’s supposed to be hard to speak while crying. It really dampened my enjoyment of that scene. :((

The rest? Damn perfect; I love it. The characters have so much depth to them. Their emotions are so well conveyed by the writing.

And man do I really like stories good at bringing out the worst of the main characters: Tomoya didn’t want to cause pain to others, so much that he ended up hurting people unintentionally (funny enough, one of the stories I’m planning to write took inspiration from this - I watched the OVA btw). Kyou would rather sacrifice her happiness for the sake of others, but because she can’t keep doing that for long (sh’s just human), she caused things to get complicated. Ryou’s feelings made her do selfish things, and at the same time, led her to sacrificing her identity. The result: a deconstruction of high school romance, dragging it out of the rose-colored lens it’s often viewed on.

The story really stands on solid writing and realism. The awful stuff that the characters did? Happens in real life too often. Society should begin accepting consensual polygamy tbh

Lastly, I quite like both of them, but I think I like Kyou a bit more. Kyou’s now among my best gril candidates; she’s too savage to not like. Ryou’s pretty close, at least for now.

4.25/5 for me. Had more flaws than the previous routes I’ve read in this VN, but had a very compelling drama to it.

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#77

FINALLY someone else who gets it!

But yeah, amazing route, and glad you liked it too :kyouevil:

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#78

I’m conflicted in this route. On one hand, I’ve heard people argue that Ryou’s actions are douchy(?) - even when she knows her sister likes Tomoya, she still asks her to help them get together, ignoring her feelings, as well as Tomoya’s. Heck, even at the end, she tries to be act like Kyou just to be with Tomoya, even if it’s clear he doesn’t share the same feelings towards her.

But on the other, I empathize with the reason why she does it - she’s desperate. This relationship isn’t something she can get. Like, at the moment, she really can’t imagine them being together, no matter how much she tried. So, what does she do? She asks help from her sister, even if it hurts, she’ll bear with the guilt, just to get what she really wanted, Tomoya’s love/attention(?).

Cause of this, I really don’t know what to feel for Ryou.

For Kyou, I just think it’s sad that she’s willing to go through this much for her sister - just cause she was not confident in herself and the answer Tomoya would give. I guess she underestimated the pain she would have to bear by helping her sister.

For this route, I really love it. It feels the most…human out of all the routes I’ve read (Fuko, Misae, and Tomoyo), which makes for interesting discussions especially on the matter of emotions and rationality. Thus, I really really love this route.

The biggest thing I hate is that I had to kiss Ryou to progress. I didn’t know that so I had to retry the route multiple times before resorting to a guide. I guess it’s important to the story of the route, but still, it’s Kyou’s route!

So, now I’m confused…who’s in the wrong here?

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#79

There has been quite a lot of study, because identical twins as we can expect are ideal subjects for the Nature vs Nurture argument.

E.G. The Mystery of How Identical Twins Develop Different Personalities

I take your point that this is pushing the envelope here though!

Same here, but the Clannad Side Story #4 - while being average quality, does look at the Ryou vs Kyou situation before the events of Clannad which could veer the reader wither way! ( won’t say more : spoilers )

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#80

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I seem to be missing a CG, anyone help?

#81

It’s from a different route, don’t worry.

#82

Thanks, I was confused, but now I’m good.

#83

I finished the Kyou route recently, and it was very different from what I expected. On the one hand it’s a great route, I think the struggles of the 3 main characters (Kyou, Ryou and Tomoya) are portrayed really well and their flaws made them very human. The inner monologues of Tomoya were very interesting and it highlighted how emotionally unstable he actually is. It’s definitely one of my favourite routes, but as a Kyou fanboy I also was slightly disappointed I didn’t get to see her as much as I would have liked to. The other routes generally have a strong focus on a single girl, and I feel like Kyou had less of that, but I suppose it’s not that surprising considering that the route is about both twins after all. But I will surely read the route again in the future, and this time I won’t have these specific expectations (and will probably like the route even more for that reason as well). I’m just kinda sad there’s no Kyou After or something. Ah well, that’s just my inner Kyou fanboy speaking again, sorry for rambling on lol.

I know this is a comment from a year ago, but I just wanted to reply to it anyway. I listened to her voice acting during the rain scene for a second time and I agree it’s too dry, though it didn’t bother me to the point where I enjoyed the scene less. Interestingly I think she did a much better job on the same scene in the OVA, where she sounds far more emotional. Not sure if they didn’t coach her properly on the scene in the VN or something, but yeah… In the end I’m okay with the scene regardless.

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