CLANNAD - Kyou Fujibayashi Route & Character Discussion

Key Discussion
#26

Time to break what I’ve been doing the entire time and put out a post long before I’ve finished and collected my thoughts.

This route is so fuckin’ dumb. Like ok so

That’s been the whole thing so far, and, as seen here, the the writing pretty much knows that, the route keeps acknowledging that the whole thing is fuckin’ dumb.
But it’s still continuing to go along that fuckin’ dumb path. And now I’ve got the choice that, much to my dismay, I’m supposed to expect Tomoya actually does give going out with Ryou a go and that’s going to be hours of fuckin’ dumb wasted on some fuckin’ dumb romance between someone who doesn’t give a shit and the stuttermachine 5000.

BLEH.

#27

I was struggling to articulate what it was about the route that I didn’t like, but I think you just nailed it quite explicitly :stuck_out_tongue:

The whole route treats Ryou like dirt, and there is always a feeling that Tomoya is fully aware that it’s a dumb thing to do, but does it anyway. The way the route concludes doesn’t really help either.

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#28

Random thought I forgot to write about, Sunohara is such a bro in this route despite still being the butt of the joke for much of it. Props to you, Sunohara. MVP of the route.

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#29

I wonder how the twins could be considered to be “psychologically apt” in their attraction for Tomoya, if you know what I mean. The other characters are either similar to Tomoya or otherwise fill in some role for him that he’s been lacking in his life, yet Ryou’s feelings seem like they’re just an ordinary high school crush.

Though maybe reading Kappei’s route is necessary to really get into her character, since that’s where the major part of her character development actually happens.

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#30

Sunohara kicks so much ass in this route. Like, it is freaking crazy. He was my favorite part of this route and it really permanently endeared his character to me. Which is good because I did the Mei route the other day and I spent a chunk of that route wanting to kick him again.

#31

I don’t want to be rude, so hopefully I don’t offend anyone, but I personally hated this route. Not the writing or anything, just the actual story of this one. I was cheated on many times (my ex had a 4 month relationship with another girl at one point when we had been together for about 2 years) and it’s a real sore spot for me. So having to play through as someone who is stringing a girl along while having feelings for someone else was just… I did not enjoy it one bit. It made me very angry.

I don’t much like Kyou and I didn’t before this route either. I didn’t hate her though and I still don’t. But I find a very strong conflict in what she wants to accomplish (helping others) and how she acts. I wanted to see more of Ryou and I’m glad I got to because I really like her. So on top of the emotionally difficult aspect of playing someone who was falling for someone else, it also happened when I was growing quite fond of the girl he was dating.

There were some good things. The acting dramatic about Botan was quite funny. I liked the affection rating and event flags gags. Kyou looked cute with the shoulder length hair. Sunohara surprised me with his wisdom in this one. The whole time I was thinking “You can’t get out of this without hurting someone and you’re only prolonging it and making it worse” and he took the words right out of my mouth.

But yeah overall it was not for me, sorry! I did not like it, I did not like how people were being treated, and I especially did not like how I was excited to complete the Ryou route after and it was barely different and much much shorter. I actually wanted to see them interact more as a couple because darn it I LIKED HER! Oh well~

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#32

Ok

This route is fuckin’ dumb.

Literally the entire thing, THE ENTIRE THING has it’s foundation build on ‘The both like Tomoya’, but WHY DOES RYOU LIKE TOMOYA, there is NO GOD DAMN CATALYST TO SPARK THOSE FEELINGS. The entire thing us built on a brick that EXISTS because they story NEEDS IT TO EXIST instead of MAKING THE FUCKING BRICK FIRST.
“Aww kanon naw das the point man Tomoya/Ryou is supposed to be this fake ass shit romance” NO, that’s only Tomoya, the route pretty clearly wants me to believe Ryou is head over heels for this assmuncher SHE DOESN’T FUCKING KNOOOOOOW.
Ok but see, once they start going out, Tomoya starts doing some stuff that could believably make Ryou start thinking ‘yo I’d bang that’, a lot of saying embarrassing things to help her self confidence, and bunch of stuff that would be really legit if she WASN’T INTO HIM BEFORE HE STARTED SAYING ALL THIS SHIT WHY IS SHE GOD DAMN INTO HIM FOR NOT FUCKING REASON THIS IS SO DUMB WAIT THIS IS JUST BOOTLEG NAGISA AS WELL SHIT GAME 0/10.

So, with that GIGANTIC KAIJU MULTICOLOURED ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM ADDRESSED, time to talk about the rest of the route, talk about is as if the foundation wasn’t made of unsettled jelly.
Cause it’s actually pretty solid. I MEAN ASIDE FROM THAT DUMB SHIT UP THERE but I won’t mention that anymore.

Kyou’s Character

Hey Aspi, screw you.

Kyou is cool beans, I like her…colourful descriptions in her threats. I like how she’s kind of a shithead, FLAWS ARE GREAT CLANNAD GIVE YOUR GIRLS NATURAL FLAWS MORE. oooh that’s a good word for Kyou, Natural! She dumps her emotions and thoughts everywhere and they’re pretty prone to swing on a moments notice and change when she’s given time to think LIKE A HUMAN BEING.
Her personality feels like a person without the need of some ridiculous overblown character trait that completely encompasses her entire being without any need to create any personality to go with it, like, I dunno, being so shy you can go several conversations with ‘um/uh/e-eh’ being your only words and s-s-stuttering so bad it’s practically a medical condition, THAT’D BE A SHIT CHARACTER WOULDN’T IT?

Ryou’s Character

lol

Botan’s Character

has more depth than fuckin’ ryou at least

Puhi Puhi!

The Route

It’s fuckin’ dumb.

So fuckin’ dumb.

Even aside from, ya know, THE RYOU LIKING TOMOYA problem, it’s fuckin’ dumb.

But see, all the other flaws? It’s aware of them, they’re part of it, everyone SUPPOSED to be a GOD DAMN NO BALLS STOP BEATING AROUND THE GOD DAMN BUSH HOLY SHIT little pile of trash, people can be like that BECAUSE COMMUNICATION IS REALLY FUCKING HARD GUYS WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO(people are bad at being people). I am not ragging on the route for that, it’s legit(I hate it, in writing or in REALITY FUCKING HELL PEOPLE) but I get the routes intent, it’s showing how GARBAGE THAT BEHAVIOR IS GROW SOME BALLS JESUS.

See this is a problem, the route is flawed so god damn much but it’s built around those flaws, they are the backbone of the story SO IT’S REALLY HARD TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THIS ROUTE, what it should be doing so bad, it’s doing so good(Aside from Ryou liking Tomoya for no reason at the start AAAAAAAAAAAAGH). The fake ass relationship of Ryou and Tomoya is great, it’s a fuckin’ dumb ass time wasting charade that does nothing…BUT THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT IT’S SUPPOSED TO BE, it’s dumb, and stupid, and shouldn’t be there AND IT’S SUPPOSED TO BE IT’S BRILLIANT. The route is full of these fuckin’ dumb things that really are fuckin’ dumb but the way they’re used has me like ‘shit that’s great how they’re using that fuckin’ dumb thing’.

Man look at all that Kyou being NATURAL, she holds back the feels she was too scared to even get out to help her sister WITH HER STUPID RELATIONSHIP THAT SHOULDN’T EXIST and that’s cool as balls, it’s not that deplorable ‘I’VE SO GOD DAMN SELFLESS’ I lovehate in characters, it’s overwhelming love for her sister combined with her own fear making her falsely believe it won’t matter to her. And the tiniest break she gives herself with ‘hai practice kissu’ is wonderful, it’s that one selfish thing she gives herself and it blows up all in her face with the rumors, she handles it poorly at first in a panic but then manages to compose herself, all these things really bring out that she’s natural and a good character with real emotion and AND NOT A PIECE OF SHIT LIKE YOU, SAKAGAMI-SAN.

Also MAD BRO SUNOHARA. Total swagmachine this route, yet again.
I bet all the idiots who were seriously insulting him back in common feel dumb.

Overall

So in short, that massive senseless rambling basically amounts to me saying: Route is a fuckin’ dumb mess of stupid misunderstanding bullshit and an absolutely unforgivable foundation, but it’s crafted around being fuckin’ dumb, I cannot bring myself to be anything less than impressed by the writing. I found it rather enjoyable, if infuriating at times. Fuckin’ Dumb/10

By the way, I don’t really dislike Ryou that much.

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Kazamatsuri Awards 2014-2016 Nominations
#33

You really do point out the main gist of the route quite well. I myself have a soft spot for stories that involve people doing stupid and/or selfish things and watching the characters grow from that. It’s definitely a personal thing and I can imagine it being infuriating for some others, but I am still looking forward to reading it again~

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#34

Yes, Ryou has no real reason for liking Tomoya. She just has a crush on him. And thats because Kyou is friends with him. Ryou says herself that there is no real reason. She just happens to like him because her sister talks to him and Ryou is around them. She is super shy and does probably not talk or is around other boys. So its perfectly fine for me that she develops a crush on him, even if they are not compatible at all.

That being said, Ryou is the least best match for Tomoya at all. I would even support Tomoya x each of the sunohara siblings more. Tomoya has absolutely no interest in her and Ryou just likes him because there is no one else she could like (at least in this route).

Anyway, I like their route. Everyone is acting pretty dumb here (Except sunohara, mr. MVP). Ryou, for accepting her sisters help even if she knows how much it is hurting Kyou. Tomoya, for just going with it only because kyou said so. And of course, Kyou, for trying to ignore her feelings and help her sister. She just tries to be a good sister and help Ryou, thats obvious, but helping someone while the same thing is hurting you pretty badly is not a good idea. In the end they will both get hurt.

But being dumb is a totally normal human thing. And because of that I like their route. You see them struggling to order their own feelings and decide whats best for them. I also liked dating Ryou. Even if it makes no sence for them to date, it was a good read for me. Ryou trying hard to not act shy and be confident was cute. Also, its funny that Youhei is actually the smartest person in this route. This fact alone makes this route pretty amazing.

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#36

You do seem to be the most passionate reader. :laughing:

Ryou was really depressing on this route. When you go for the Kyou ending it made me really uncomfortable that she liked Tomoya enough to try and become like her sister to keep him. Especially because, as you said, there is no great reason for her to like him in the first place and they have terrible chemistry when they are going out. I think at a certain point it really was more of her wanting to out-do Kyou at something as I am sure Ryou is generally upstaged. She is in the kind of sad position of loving someone but also feeling jealous of them it can be hard to rationalize the two emotions. I think you see Ryou at her worst in this route where as when she plays more of a supporting role she works better.

Yeah, I liked Kyou’s development in this route a lot and I thought she stayed likable the whole time. Kyou. I think her dilemma was well played out, and I think the almost practice kiss, followed by a rally behind her sister, followed by a sort of breakdown…well it was very believable and I think did a good job showing that even while she can be rough around the edges Kyou does care a lot about doing what is right and taking care of her loved ones.

As someone who probably insulted Sunohara on common I would say I feel more relieved than dumb :grin: Sunohara had shown signs in other routes that he was actually pretty great, but this route was his golden moment for sure. I can’t dislike him at this point, though I would still probably punch him if I saw him.

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#37

Well that was a route.

Having read Ryou ending before Kyou ending, I feel like the devs/writers expected you to get the Ryou ending prior to the Kyou ending. You get it by being a ‘good boyfriend’ after all and why wouldn’t you pick those choices if you’re looking to get a good ending? And so it ends on an ambiguous note with a somewhat positive outlook for the future.

BUT THEN YOU GO BACK and pick the other choices (probably because you didn’t get an orb of light) and as it turns out things are a lot more complicated. Kyou tells of how painful it is for her to see Tomoya and Ryou be a couple - that wouldn’t be any different in the Ryou ending. And I honestly wonder if Ryou would still go on to meet her future boyfriend and fall for him, creating a situation that mirrors the triangle in Kyou branch. Well damn now I want the Ryou branch to be way longer, it sounds like it could still get quite a bit of drama.

Speaking of Ryou, no personality my ass. Sure her reasons for falling for Tomoya are handwaved to the point we have to assume it was just a random crush but I’ll be darned if we don’t get to know her this route. Reading about what she thinks of fortune telling was really interesting, I had half forgotten how mature she is in that scene. (And of course having the whole fortune telling can be inaccurate shtick in a visual novel is just perfect, the writers knew exactly what they were doing there.) In the end, Ryou is the one who brings things to a close cause Tomoya is too busy being cornered and Kyou would have the hardest time doing it of everyone involved. And in the end she can even look back and say it was a great time while it lasted and she learned a lot from it.

And that’s even though she was seriously pushing herself to change, not in a natural manner, but deliberately and forcibly throwing away her identity to be able to replace Kyou as Tomoya’s girlfriend. I clenched up reading that.

Actually not just that. I had this feeling of teeth-grinding unease throughout the whole thing, which is something I simultaneously liked and loathed. It’s like… I really like the route and the way it’s written and the fact that this VN even dares to dabble in these kinds of subjects… but damn it it is pretty painful to read. Not exactly the kind of feel good route Yukine’s was, that’s for sure.

On the more positive side you just can’t help but love Sunohara in this route. I like how he’s the total opposite of Tomoyo in that he’s an idiot, has no motivation to work hard for anything, but still has a generally keen insight into the thoughts and feelings of the people around him. And he really cares for Tomoya. Without him there to talk and give his perspective on things occasionally Tomoya might’ve just lost himself in his own self-loathing.

By the way, has anyone else read the bad ends of the route? (No Kanon, Ryou ending is not a bad end) At first I was getting pretty annoyed with how Kyou always and so unreasonably keeps pushing the reluctant Tomoya into meeting Ryou and spending time with her, but really, it only goes for as long as Tomoya goes along with it. If you decide against it just once, Tomoya just tells Kyou like it is and she’s not obstinate or anything (albeit somewhat annoyed), she just accepts it, tells Tomoya not to avoid Ryou and walks off. It’s hard to hate her being pushy when she stops being as such the moment Tomoya actually says “no”.

Still wouldn’t have ever found the proper Kyou ending on my own, because long hair? Really? Although to be fair the way the sprites of each of the sisters pops up as Tomoya considers it should’ve been a dead giveaway that this is the first “who are you REALLY in love with” kind of choice.

Overall, I like the route, but it’s not one of my favorites, I don’t feel strongly about either of the sisters, and it was somewhat painful to read. A decent enough outcome.

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#38

Yeah I really admired the way Riou moved past it in the end to be happy for Tomoya and he sister in her own way. That was part of what was so painful was that Ryou KNEW the whole time, and she kept trying and she kept a smile on her face. Do you know how hard it would be to do that? Regardless of how I feel about her wanting to change herself entirely, I admired the strength she needed to be able to continue on like that without breaking down for a while.

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#39

Hey look you managed to write what I wanted to but I got distracted with CONSTANT SCREAMING.
Including the Ryou stuff I really need to stress I completely played up disdain for her in that post.

BUT NOOOOO LIGHT ORB.
Course there isn’t.
They don’t belong together at all.
It’s a bad end.

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#40

The fact that there was no light orb indicates to the reader that she wasn’t happy.

People can argue that she was, but IF she was, it wasn’t “true” happiness, because that’s what the orbs allegedly represent. See Yukine route.

It was deceiving, and made me feel even worse for Ryou.
I genuinely felt completely horrible after finishing it.

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#41

I keep trying to argue this is every route…

[quote=“Kanon, post:32, topic:1941”]
WHY DOES RYOU LIKE TOMOYA, there is NO GOD DAMN CATALYST TO SPARK THOSE FEELINGS
[/quote]It’s highschool love, dude, you dont need a reason. ;p

[quote=“ZakM, post:40, topic:1941”]
The fact that there was no light orb indicates to the reader that she wasn’t happy.
[/quote]More like, it indicates that no one was helping no one with all those shenanegans.

[quote=“ZakM, post:40, topic:1941”]
It was deceiving, and made me feel even worse for Ryou. I genuinely felt completely horrible after finishing it.
[/quote]Not for Ryou, you should feel worse for Kyou. Think about it. Whats gonna happen in the Ryou ending? Tomoya and Ryou will probably date for a while, and then they’ll move on. Ryou might be sad, or maybe she’ll be over Tomoya by then, since (Later CLANNAD stuff) we know from Kappei’s route anyway who she’s truly meant for. Thats what happens most often in highschool romance anyways. Most highschool love isnt “true happiness.”

But think about Kyou. She actually loves Tomoya. She’s one of his only friends anyway. She actually might have a future with Tomoya, but in Ryou’s end she completely gives it up.

Really though, this route is filled with emotion. Completely unnecessary emotion. You know how this whole thing could have been solved? Tomoya actually doing something. Kanon keeps screaming about “Why does Ryou like Tomoya!?” but really it should be “WHY IS TOMOYA CONVINCING HIMSELF THAT HE SHOULD KEEP GOING OUT WITH RYOU!?” This route completely embodies the "I hate this town (and therefore Im just gonna spend my life wasting time, not caring about anything) part of Tomoya.

Everyone’s like “OMG Sunohara’s such a bro in this route he’s so great.” But really, think about how ironic that is. Sunohara loves to hang around doing nothing too. But when Tomoya becomes so indecisive that Sunohara can see that its really hurting his friend and the twins, he steps up.

So then what does this route teach Tomoya? How about PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT OTHERS ARE FEELING FOR ONCE AND DONT GO OUT WITH A GIRL JUST BECAUSE SURE WHY NOT. I say that in jest. Tomoya’s usually a pretty observant person anyway.

In reality, it probably teaches something about "Even when our intentions are in the right place, sometimes our ‘sacrifices’ or things we think we’re doing for someone else, can end up hurting ourselves, the person we’re trying to help, and even others."

And, as a final comment, I always try to look past it, but this route really always ends up boring me until the end. Mostly because Ryou cant fucking talk. And its not like she’s trying to say meaningful things either. I probably wouldnt hate her as much if it werent for that. She’d just be “the annoying girl who’s getting in the way of Kyou and Tomoya” instead of “the annoying girl who wont stop wasting my time.” Not really her fault tho, in the end I guess.

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#42

NAH M8

He’s like

‘Oh fuck this is a terrible idea but if I stop doing this it’ll upset her shit shit shit’

Tomoya’s reason for sticking with her is ‘FUCK I DON’T WANNA UPSET HER’

I know right? Like for real, this is a screencap of all her lines in an entire conversation of which she’s kind of important to the conversation:

#43

Welp, there goes my largest contribution for the podcast :x

He does say it pretty well when you choose to not date her and Kyou confronts you. Something like “If I date her and we just break up, I’ll end up hurting her even more.” He has a point and he knows it, and it is indeed a valid point. Not everyone can have the courage to initiate a breakup, especially when nothing specifically bad is happening with the relationship.

#44

Looks like I’m pretty late into the game here, but here goes my comments on the twins so far:

Ryou is really the kind and shy type, although she can be pretty annoying especially for those that hears the dialogues’ voices to the last letter due to her countless stuttering but it is something that I can sympathize since I’m a shy person as well. But once you get used to her she is quite likable, or to some people, bearable.

Agree 100% regarding Ryou’s route, although I won;t say that I felt to the point of feeling horrible by end route time, I still feel happy for her and I’m sure she will lead a happy life with Tomoya, but it’s just sad that it will not be the happiest she will be ever.

Kyou, on the other is what I call the type of person that is really fun to hang around with(still can’t beat Sunohara though XD). For me she is basically Tomoya, but a girl, with more energy and short temper. I can’t help feeling that if Tomoya life have been one that is normal, he would end up as cheerful as Kyou. As a romance partner for Tomoya, yeah she REALLY match up well, with their attitudes they will really make a great couple. Really looking forward to finishing her route.

#45

One thing I like about Ryou that I think is more visible in other routes though you do get a sense for it here is that even though she is shy and stutters to say what she thinks, she is so serious about her interactions with people and what she says. She does often say what she thinks, but she is the type who takes a long time to gather her thoughts and organize her words. (spoiler-ish for Mei route) If you have Sunohara and Tomoya go to her to ask about being Sunohara’s fake girlfriend you can tell that she is really off put but the conversation, but you can also feel that she is listening carefully and taking the time to understand best she can. And at the end she points out the real solution would just be if Sunohara started actually being diligent and leading a good life instead of just pretending. I guess I kind of relate to this myself because I have tendency to overthink what I want to say and often miss my chance to say it.

They do work well, especially as a double straight man comedy duo destroying Sunohara. I wonder if they will keep try to convince him to move out by them so that they can happily continue their verbal assaults.

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#46

Nice point, all those stuttering Ryou does is just proof on how she really tries her best interacting with others. In a way, I think Ryou is one of the bravest character in Clannad. Her struggle may be small and trivial but she keeps on trying.

HAHAHA so true, well said :joy:

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