Little Busters! - Refrain Arc Discussion

[Misuzu]

I just finished Refrain!
Even though I knew everything that was going to happen, it was still a great experience
I had to pause and stop crying when Refrain first started and you see the CG of the crash in Riki’s nightmare before the very first line of text even appears so you can gauge how the rest of Refrain went from that

Just my thoughts on some quick thoughts on some things

Prologue - I thought this was really well done. And really set up that atmosphere that something is horribly wrong.
Episode: Masato - I really didn’t enjoy this in the anime but this was LEAGUES better in the VN. I had figured this episode to be one that I could get through without tears but During the flashback to the childhood when Masato first befriends Kyousuke and “Little Melody” began I couldn’t hold back the tears
Episode: Kengo - I feel like a lot of the flashback scenes could have been shortened, and that not all of them were completely necessary. Like, I just read a majority of these so we don’t need to reread them entirely again so soon. But rereading called game from Kengo’s perspective was brilliant and I wish they would have done the same in the anime.
Episode: Kyousuke - Literally perfect.
Episode: Little Busters - There’s literally nothing I can say that hasn’t already been said about how beautiful and traumatizingly amazing this was. I wish they would have shown the scene with Komari and Rin talking on the roof back in Rin2 or somewhere in the common route because it felt weird that they were showing it as if it was supposed to be a flashback but it had never been seen before. The rest of Rin’s farewells to everybody was very well done though. Thank god I knew that the hospital scene was going to be a fake end because I don’t think my heart could have handled it if I would’ve thought that was the damn ending.
Episode: Rin - I already cried my eyes out during Rin’s farewells the first time, now I have to do it again? Rhude.
Episode: Riki - I love that they dealt with Riki’s fear of “to live is to lose” and him overcoming that, but I don’t feel they explained how that cured the narcolepsy thing very well. Without prior knowledge as to what was happening during episode Riki, I would have been super confused as to how he magically got his narcolespy cured. The bus rescue was beautiful though. Seeing Kyousuke like that. Just wow.
Epilogue - This was really really well done.

So yeah Refrain was perfect and amazing
(and i want to replay it instantly)

[EisenKoubu]

[quote=“Misuzu, post:162, topic:203”]
I feel like a lot of the flashback scenes could have been shortened, and that not all of them were completely necessary. Like, I just read a majority of these so we don’t need to reread them entirely again so soon.
[/quote]Yeah, that’s how I felt about Kengo’s episode as well. (AIR spoilers) It’s almost as bad as AIR.

[quote=“Misuzu, post:162, topic:203”]
During the flashback to the childhood when Masato first befriends Kyousuke and “Little Melody” began I couldn’t hold back the tears
[/quote]That scene would have gotten me if I weren’t so tired, but yeah. One of the best scenes in Refrain, imo.

[quote=“Misuzu, post:162, topic:203”]
Refrain was perfect and amazing
[/quote]I don’t think Refrain was perfect at all. But it is amazing.

[sillylittlemelody]

Little Busters! - Kengo Miyazawa Character Discussion

It’s implied that they have left the world (actually shown in the anime).

I know. I just mean it’d be better if we got more about the reality of those girls. I’m not saying: why did they ignore their existence in Refrain? Maybe, they could’ve extended that epilogue, or simply let the other girls still be in the world. This doesn’t matter, my point is: it would be better if the girls were more explored in Refrain.

[Yerian]

As someone who liked the “It is enough” ending more than the epilogue, I really wouldnt have wanted it a longer epilogue. It was long enough as it was.

And really, imo the other heroines had no place in Refrain. Their regrets had already been fulfilled, so there was no reason for them to be there. There was nothing more to be explored.

[sillylittlemelody]

And really, imo the other heroines had no place in Refrain. Their regrets had already been fulfilled, so there was no reason for them to be there. There was nothing more to be explored.

There could’ve been. Exploring the “real” nature of their regrets. What if Kud felt like someone useless and that she didn’t deserve to live because she did something that ended up causing the accident? This is just an example, but my point is that the heroines could’ve been more linked to the “real” part of the story.

[Yerian]

the heroines could’ve been more linked to the “real” part of the story.

THEY WERE. The ‘real’ part of the story as you call it wasnt just in Refrain. It was the whole thing. The world would not have been created if only Kyousuke, Kengo, and Masato had regrets. Each heroine’s route and resolution of their regrets was just as much a part of the ‘real’ story as Refrain. Without them, there wouldnt have been a ‘world where nothing happened’ in the first place, without them Riki wouldnt have been strong enough, etc.

[sillylittlemelody]

This is not what I mean. The girls didn’t have farewells, some regrets of the girls don’t make sense in the real world if taken literally (I don’t think they should’ve spilled all the beans, but maybe more hints), we don’t see what happened exactly before the bus accident, etc.

[Aspirety]

I see what melody is saying and I kinda agree. While Little Busters generally did a great job of making all the routes relevant, that doesn’t mean there isn’t room for improvement. It’s unfortunate that the only girls who get any real closure AFTER the secret of the world is known to the viewer are Rin, Saya, Sasami, Kanata, and to a lesser extent Kurugaya. I feel like there could’ve been a lot of benefit in showing the full picture of Kud’s regrets, or more insight into the aftermath of Mio’s development in her route, for example.

[HeliosAlpha]

Well there is Kud’s third ending in EX. I haven’t spent much time on that though, might do that once I’ve re-read the route in a couple of weeks. MIo doesn’t get anything though except that really, really, strange sex scene.

[sillylittlemelody]

Well there is Kud’s third ending in EX.

Is that one translated?

[HeliosAlpha]

No, nothing EX related has been translated for public use. I gave up on the EX translation a while ago.

[sillylittlemelody]

Almost everything that happened in Little Busters, the entire focus of the VN as a piece, is that these are immature teenagers fucking up. Everyone was like this. The entire setting of Little Busters is this hyperbolic world where teenagers were using their traumas to ‘help’ Riki and Rin survive. It was fucked up and wrong. That’s why it didn’t work, Kyousuke placed these hyperbolic immaturities as essential things that by fixing would mature Rin and Riki. But of course they didn’t. Little Busters was never about solving these things, rather about moving on past them. No matter how painful they may be.

Except they did help Riki and Rin mature. How else do you think Riki got stronger? And in the epilogue, you can see that those conflicts were still being solved in their lives, it wasn’t something from the past. The girls were dying with those troubles unsolved. That’s why they had regrets.

[Aegair]

Except they did help Riki and Rin mature. How else do you think Riki got stronger?

I’d argue that it wasn’t solving their problems that helped Rin and Riki mature. If that was the case Kyousuke wouldn’t have been this massively immature dork that just feigned at knowing what he was doing. It just sorta… Opened the way to them figuring out for themselves what they needed to do. Kyousuke’s plan fucked up, it was by moving past this that they helped themselves.

And in the epilogue, you can see that those conflicts were still being solved in their lives, it wasn’t something from the past. The girls were dying with those troubles unsolved. That’s why they had regrets.

Uhuh. But these regrets weren’t just immediately solved, rather they were helped just a little bit. The twins weren’t immediately free of their pasts, they’d just begun to work on their futures. The same could be said about everyone. This wasn’t a solution just another turning point, so to speak.

[Yerian]

Almost everything that happened in Little Busters, the entire focus of the VN as a piece, is that these are immature teenagers fucking up.
The entire setting of Little Busters is this hyperbolic world where teenagers were using their traumas to ‘help’ Riki and Rin survive. It was fucked up and wrong. That’s why it didn’t work, Kyousuke placed these hyperbolic immaturities as essential things that by fixing would mature Rin and Riki.

Ummm… no, Ive never seen it described like that before, nor do I agree with it. It was never about any of the characters messing things up for themselves. It was about a bunch of kids who had had some really screwed up things happen to them.

Some of them wished they could go back and fix them; some of them wished that they had been able to get past it; some of them wished they had just done more in the first place.

It wasn’t hyperbolic immaturities. They were real, believable regrets, that were able to be fulfilled in miraculous ways due to the secret of the world.

You’ll also remember that it was only the boys, namely Kyousuke, who had regrets about Riki and Rin. Kyousuke didnt place them there. He simply used the nature of the world and the other regrets to his advantage, in order fulfil his own. You may call that screwed up, but to me it seems pretty selfless. Kyousuke’s pretty smart, and everyone trusts him. He didnt have to help anyone. But instead he committed himself to helping everyone.

[quote=“Aegair, post:175, topic:203”]
Kyousuke’s plan fucked up
[/quote]I don’t know if you’ve read the rest of this discussion above yet, but there are a bunch of us here who actually think Kyousuke might have never messed up. Like, he was lying when he said that he had messed up in Rin2, and pushing Riki and Rin to leave, acting as distant and depressed, was all part of his plan.

[Aegair]

Ummm… no, Ive never seen it described like that before, nor do I agree with it. It was never about any of the characters messing things up for themselves. It was about a bunch of kids who not only had had some really screwed up things happen to them.

Some of them wished they could go back and fix them; some of them wished that they had been able to get past it; some of them wished they had just done more in the first place.

It wasn’t hyperbolic immaturities. They were real, believable regrets, that were able to be fulfilled in miraculous ways due to the secret of the world.

Ah, I’ve probably phrased what I was trying to say badly. I’m not saying their regrets weren’t believable or real. Moreso that the way they were being ‘not-dealt’ with was hyperbolic and immature. What happened to all the characters wasn’t their fault, but their ways of dealing with that was more the issue. It worked, but it was unbelievably toxic for them all. It didn’t solve anything. The twins were just hurting each other needlessly, Komari was just running from her past. Kurugaya running from the future, sorta kinda. Mio taking escapism to the extreme. (I feel I’ve probs over simplified here >.<)

What Riki did was help them begin to deal with these issues, their pasts, their futures themselves. But I wouldn’t really say he fulfilled or solved them, nor would I say his acts of fulfilling or solving them was what ended up helping them all in the end. Rather they helped to get to the point they could live on. Or something.

You’ll also remember that it was only the boys, namely Kyousuke, who had regrets about Riki and Rin. Kyousuke didnt place them there. He simply used the nature of the world and the other regrets to his advantage, in order fulfil his own. You may call that screwed up, but to me it seems pretty selfless. Kyousuke’s pretty smart, and everyone trusts him. He didnt have to help anyone. But instead he committed himself to helping everyone.

I’d probs say both. Kyousuke being brilliant, and Kyousuke screwing up I find to both be kind of important. Which is more sorta connected to your next point on Kyousuke not messing up. I’ll read that discussion at some point but as far as I can see taking that viewpoint would change alot of how various scenes are read. Not that that is wrong or anything, just different and incompatible with my own thoughts on things. Since if Kyousuke never messed up his mirrored progression alongside Riki isn’t really a thing. Nor would him being this flawless being be treated as false and silly, just something to be accepted rather than what ultimately is discarded by the end of Refrain. ^^;

[Takafumi]

Kyousuke’s plan fucked up, it was by moving past this that they helped themselves.

I’ve posted some things about this before, but it’s stated in places of the VN that Kyousuke’s plan never really went wrong. He was generally always on-track.

But these regrets weren’t just immediately solved, rather they were helped just a little bit. The twins weren’t immediately free of their pasts, they’d just begun to work on their futures. The same could be said about everyone. This wasn’t a solution just another turning point, so to speak.

Another thing I’ve posted here before, is after the events of Refrain, Riki points out how everyone has changed slightly. Litbus is just the starting point of the cast coming to terms with everything.

These two posts should be easy to find. They are a big string of VN screenshots.

What happened to all the characters wasn’t their fault, but their ways of dealing with that was more the issue. It worked, but it was unbelievably toxic for them all. It didn’t solve anything.

The characters in all the routes were basically… not growing up. They had regrets, but they never tried to overcome them alone. Riki never tried to accept what happened in his past. Rin never tried to make friends without Kyousuke’s help. The twins never tried to talk about things sensibly. Most of the characters had a similar refusal to not progress.

At the start of the VN, Yuiko had already made the decision to progress from her past regrets, so she’s slightly different to the others, but she was also the only one to refuse the world’s reset, so she’s arguably the one who has grown least through it all.
Kengo was also in a weird place of accepting the past at face value, but he still wanted to have done it differently.

[Yerian]

[quote=“Aegair, post:177, topic:203”]
But I wouldn’t really say he fulfilled or solved them, nor would I say his acts of fulfilling or solving them was what ended up helping them all in the end. Rather they helped to get to the point they could live on. Or something.
[/quote]First of all, thanks for clarifying. However, I still disagree. Obviously in the real world they werent dealing with the issues properly, or they wouldnt have had the regrets in the first place. If Riki hadnt helped them to fulfil their regrets, their regrets wouldnt have gone away, and the world would have continued to exist. Remember, they weren’t supposed to survive. They weren’t trying to get to a point where they could live on, because they were supposed to die in the end no matter what. They were only there so they could die without each of their regrets.

Since if Kyousuke never messed up his mirrored progression alongside Riki isn’t really a thing. Nor would him being this flawless being be treated as false and silly, just something to be accepted rather than what ultimately is discarded by the end of Refrain. ^^;

Im not sure what you mean by this. However, I would still say that Kyousuke progressed. He did have a regret that he had to deal with, after all. The only difference is, he knew the secret of the world and took matters into his own hands from the beginning.

Part of the secret of the world is that anything, no matter how miraculous or seemingly magic, can be done in order to help fulfil the regrets. I guess my theory is that Kyousuke knew the secret of the world because it was necessary in order for him to fulfil his regret.

Kyousuke did mess up. I dont believe he had this flawless plan from the beginning; I dont believe he always knew exactly what to do, nor did he actually have any control over what Riki ultimately chose to do.

Most of all, I certainly don’t believe that he did it all in one try. All the bad end, those were all times where a regret was not solved, and Kyousuke and everyone had to start all over again. And don’t you imagine that the world had repeated over and over again before the VN even started. Kyousuke said that it had repeated more times than he could count.

Thats part of what makes Kyousuke, and Masato and Kengo, so incredible, that they could go through all those times, over and over again. Even if Kyousuke was feigning being furious with himself during Refrain, he certainly wasnt feigning how tired he was, and how much pain he was going through. Kyousuke still progressed, we just didnt see it or really realize it was happening until then end because it would have given away the secret of the world.

[Aegair]

These two posts should be easy to find. They are a big string of VN screenshots.

Mmm. I’m at those / past those already. I’m still not entirely sold on Kyousuke not having messed up. Rather he’s continuing to do what he can. Like sure he’s not really sick, but that isn’t the same as him being okay. Or anything. Either way it’s an interesting discussion to read through.

EDIT: This could change if I reread it though. A large part of me wanting Kyousuke to have messed up is how to then frames Riki’s and his developments. I find Little Busters to be more about Kyousuke than Riki as is.(Sorta) Kyousuke messing up and Riki understanding that seems just to important to be false.

[Karifean]

I’d say Rin2 went far from how Kyousuke wanted it to, so in that sense he did mess up, but he still went on to make the best of the terrible situation and chose to set up Refrain, which is what ultimately succeeded.