Well in the end, it all comes down to genre. Those scenes are in Saya no Uta for the same reason they show up in Mature films. I do believe the stories could still work perfectly without those scenes, as has been proved throughout the history of media based around Mature themes. Having Mature themes however, is not an excuse to delve straight into the Porn industry. For me, it just ruins part of what could be a good story, and I do believe it is distasteful.
As I said before though, handle it how things like âNow and Then, Here and Thereâ did, without showing anything but still being blunt enough to make you think âOh god⊠that happenedâŠâ and it can be a defining scene.
The word âspecialâ isnât necessarily positive. While Eroge was the birth of the VN scene, and is keeping it alive today, it also contributes heavily to the death of the industry. They cater towards the (somewhat dedicated) Japanese porn industry, when they could be aimed at a worldwide audience. From what Iâve heard, that is how most things are handled in Japan though. They arenât the best at judging available audiences.
Oh, and Iâm not arguing against H-Scenes in VNs like you make out. Iâm not saying they should be removed; H-Scenes are to be expected by the majority of VNs. I canât argue against a core foundation of the whole industry.
I just think they are disgusting, and that mature themes can be handled in a much more tasteful way.
Another thing that I find peculiar is, in the instance of a VN having H-Scenes that can be easily added or removed without harming the story at all- Is the developers intention not simply fan service? I can understand viewing it as an art piece in that itâs âjust how VNs do things, no censorship, etcâ- But I find it difficult to believe, with the exception of very clear story driven H-Scenes that are the authors creation, that they arenât created with pornography in mind and to entertain a section of the fanbase.
Again, donât take offense to this, Iâm just trying to link authors purpose and H-Scenes, mainly because itâs commonly unnecessary and I believe that is where seeing it as distasteful to some is fair. Especially with how frequent and lengthy the segments can be, aside from also being interactions that are just⊠Hard to believe. Some scenes are uh, not your typical sexual encounter.
Yeah, I guess I made a pretty huge generalization from the very little experience I have. I often pretend that I know a ton more about stuff than I actually do.
I think part of the problem is that American film and television are infamous for having pointless romance and âobligatory sex scenes,â which contribute to the common excuse that âwell, sex sells.â At least for me, I think these biased assumptions are carrying over to opinions on H in VNs, a medium that I am relatively new to.
There is also the obvious taboo around sex as extremely mature, not to be talked about, and - depending on personal opinions - even disgusting. But for some reason, depicting violence and gore is OK. This confuses me. Granted, neither are for kids, but sex is actually something most people do at some point, and unless done without mutual consent or with criminal intentions, is perfectly normal and not disgusting. Violence on the other hand is almost always criminal, always meant to cause pain, not something most people ever want to happen to them, and in reality is a traumatizing experience. Yet its perfectly fine for a young audience to witness kids running around in a fight to the death, but sex is something no one should have to or should want to see. Am I missing something or does society really just have this backward?
[quote=âBizkitdoh, post:22, topic:401â]
Some scenes are uh, not your typical sexual encounter.
[/quote]Lets be honest, does anyone read a VN (or any work of fiction for that matter) and expect it to be completely realistic?
No, of course not. But in the realm of âis it art or is it fan serviceâ I think itâs relevant to note. Is it to move the viewer emotionally, or is it for entertainment? It seems commonly skewed to the latter in regards to how they play out, whether it be just how someone perceives it or not. The question of the authors purpose.
Again, Iâm not for or against anything. Just tossing in things I question about them as I read through this, seeing as Iâm definitely not fully read in every H-Scene ever made. ^^;
Lots of people say that the authorâs purpose doesnât matter, itâs the fansâ interpretation that decides what the work really means. I donât usually share this opinion, but I think it works really well here. It really just depends on how you view sex yourself.
If you think sex is special and emotional, then your feelings on how the VN uses H-scenes will be much different from someone who thinks sex is disgusting, or for âentertainment purposes.â
Exactly~ Itâs all down to how you interpret the topic. I dislike H-Scenes for the same reason I dislike a meal - the contents make me feel sick.
It doesnât really matter what the context of the scene is, Iâll still hate it for a reason beyond simple likes and dislikes.
My opinion on H-Scenes is that they are disgusting. Would I want them to go? No, I just donât want to see them. A lot of people (you could even say the majority) donât find the act disgusting.
I personally like the implementation of H-Scenes for that same reason, that sex is a very valuable thing when it comes to two people being close to one another- And Iâve seen them used that way before, which I really liked. Itâs a type of character development that simply canât be met by other means without the viewer fully understanding the scenario.
A lot of people tend to glance over the fact that thereâs sex saying that itâs porn or entertainment, which is quite upsetting to me as someone whoâs all about appreciating what life brings or has to offer. Itâs like that kind of person has become jaded over sexual relations, which is a mindset that runs rampant in todayâs society. âWhat sex meansâ is completely lost to them at that point. Itâs supposed to be a beautiful thing.
I feel like just pointing out one thing. Theyâre called eroge.
Voila, itâs like watching an R movie and not wanting R rated elements in it. Especially not nude actresses. Yes, itâs not full on sex anymore in those movies, but you still tend to try and expect the stuff. Other than that⊠all I can continue to say is todayâs society is perverted, so yes porn markets are more successful.
[quote=âTakafumi, post:21, topic:401â]
Those scenes are in Saya no Uta for the same reason they show up in Mature films. I do believe the stories could still work perfectly without those scenes, as has been proved throughout the history of media based around Mature themes. Having Mature themes however, is not an excuse to delve straight into the Porn industry. For me, it just ruins part of what could be a good story, and I do believe it is distasteful.
[/quote]I have to ask, have you read Saya no Uta? (thatâs just me wondering)
Theres a specific reason I say the H scenes cannot be removed or altered. The first person aspect of SnUâs H scenes helps readers identify with an otherwise inhuman protagonist. If those same H scenes had been altered to a third person perspective, or removed entirely, I couldnât have even considered Fuminori to be a human; and a very large part of the impact of that game comes from identifying with him. The other example I normally use is Yosuga no Sora, a VN with an anime (yes, anime, not hentai) adaptation. The H scenes were left in with the anime because the animators believed it could not have been done without them. Also, Iâd like to point out that mature films are usually based off books, a medium that also does not usually include first person sex scenes; so itâs not really fair to use that comparison since the source material most likely did not include direct depictions of sex in the first place.
[quote=âTakafumi, post:21, topic:401â]
it also contributes heavily to the death of the industry.
[/quote]Where is the evidence of this? I would argue that its still helping the industry expand. Especially considering there are companies like Key to draw in the âall agesâ crowd, who may or may not expand into eroge territory later on.
[quote=âBizkitdoh, post:24, topic:401â]
âis it art or is it fan serviceâ
[/quote]if we remove Nukige from the picture (which I donât think anyone disagrees are just for sexual entertainment) I think most developers have/will find a creative way to get it to lead to the former.
[quote=âyerian98, post:25, topic:401â]
Lots of people say that the authorâs purpose doesnât matter, itâs the fansâ interpretation that decides what the work really means.
[/quote]Deconstruction theory <3 This is probably my favorite school of literary criticism, and is actually the way I find myself naturally viewing things that I read. I actually almost wrote one of my English finalâs on Rewrite from this perspective, but I opted to do Dark Souls instead since I felt it would fit better with the theme.
[quote=âTakafumi, post:26, topic:401â]
I dislike H-Scenes for the same reason I dislike a meal - the contents make me feel sick.
[/quote]Surely there are meals that you actually enjoy though?
This leads to a difference in core opinions though; I have been known to eat food that makes my stomach feel terrible just because I enjoy the taste. Though, as I mentioned earlier, I canât taste very many foods, so I try to enjoy what I can actually taste, even if it makes me feel sick afterward.
[quote=âBizkitdoh, post:27, topic:401â]
Itâs supposed to be a beautiful thing.
[/quote]^this
itâs significantly more powerful when it comes from a neutral party, which is why I hadnât said it yet, but I very much agree with this, and think that our society should be a little more accepting of such a beautiful act.
Just curious, what about it disgusts you so much? I personally feel disgusted when its stuff like rape, or cheating, or unnecessary weird fetishes, or when its just the characters pleasuring themselves and its not really love. However, these can sometimes be used as purposeful plot devices in order to deliberately make the reader feel disgusted, and I can appreciate that. But you seem to feel that way about all H-scenes. No need to go into detail if youâre uncomfortable with telling us, Iâm just interested.
Would it have had the same effect if they kept the sex but remove the H-scene? You would still get the notions of him needing sex to keep his sanity when everything else is distorted, but you wouldnât be getting the nudity or the âoohsâ and âaahsâ during said scene.
Would it be possible to alter them to still be from a first-person perspective, while withholding the details? I havenât read Saya no Uta and this is a genuine question I must ask, coming from people who have read it.
I can understand KonoSoraâs argument: I, personally, do not find it a necessity to the story to keep the H-scenes, but I can imagine some people would have qualms against it, especially in the Ageha route. After all, friends-with-kissing probably isnât as a confusing relationship as friends-with-sex. Moenovel could have chosen to rewrite the sex scenes into non-H scenes, but they didnât do that, which was a pretty drastic decision. Would they have gotten the same backlash if they kept a remnant of the scene without the H? Maybe; maybe not.
My counterargument to this is Symphonic Rain. I honestly wouldnât have gotten the same impact if Chris hadnât practically forced Falsita into sex, and would be quite disappointed if they removed that scene. That scene isnât an H-scene, but a well-written sex scene.
I think we can conclude that, for many developers, adding in H-scenes is simply done to sell the game as a form of pornography. It is common in the VN industry, and, as @AngelOfDeath720 said earlier, the industry would not be able to survive without it.
The stories themselves could have been made simply because a developer told them to make a story that could have sex scenes. Or if a story was first conceived, then told later on âit has to have sex.â In those cases, they could seemingly be removed without having any impact.
There are rare cases where a writer would create a story where he intends to keep sex as a major part of storytelling, and perhaps their intent is more than just selling it as pornography. I would consider it art, but I will still look at it as pornographic art. Should it be written in a way that removes the H, I will no longer consider it pornographic.
Adding in to that example is the anime adaptation of White Album 2. They kept the sex scene, and did it so beautifully while removing the H contents. Itâs that sort of treatment that I would expect to see if I want to no longer consider something as pornographic.
Agreed. Sex is a beautiful thing, but it is also a very private and emotional act between couples. What reason do we outsiders have to know the nitty-gritty details of this act, if not for our own satisfaction? What I am trying to say is that there is a point in which sex becomes pornography when enough details are made known.
To summarize how I feel, when a VN has explicit H scenes (not simple sex scenes but nudity with details on the act itself), then I will consider it pornography. If a VN has a sex scene, with no H, then I wonât consider it pornography. Pornography can be art, it can be part of a story, or simply be there to appease those looking for it, but it still remains porn, and when a VN contains it, that is how I will view it: as a form of pornography.
This is slightly off-topic now, but I think the reason why people are so defensive about pornography, saying it is art or whatnot, is because society has shamed people into viewing it as something unethical. They try to justify pornography as ethical because it is art. I donât believe this, because I do not see pornography as unethical. As such, I do not feel the need to label it as something else to justify it as ethical; because it already is.
Part of what makes VNs special as a medium is that, as they are almost always told from 1st person POV, the reader is able to become the main character. You are supposed to feel what they feel, know what they know, and maybe most importantly, see as they see. If you think of the VN as a game or a novel, then yeah it is pornography. But if you think of it as an experience, then it becomes more involving, more real (maybe?). Of course this is only applicable when the H-scenes are done âtastefully.â
This also goes back to how the sex is presented and how you as a reader choose to see/interpret it.
The West have been doing well the job of demonizing sex as something worse than, as @yerian98 said, violence. Such demonizing reached Japan through stuff that happened in late 19th century and then we see black bars and mosaics in adult material there ÂŹ.ÂŹ
Well, itâs not intrinsicaly ethical. It depends on the existance of consensus between the parts. Without such consensus, itâs not better than rape or other sex crimes. Think of the guys who upload their vids having sex with their ex gfs to the netâŠ
I honestly think that it is impossible to really feel what a character feels because we do not share their experiences. We cannot do this because our feelings are reactions to certain events, and our reactions are shaped by our past experiences. What I do think we feel when we read VNs in first-person is empathy. We empathize with the character because of the way the story is written. That being said, I donât think we need the nitty-gritty details of intercourse in order to empathize with the emotions the character feels when it happens.
That is just my opinion, though. I must admit, that is an insight that I neglected to take into account, and I thank you for that.
I see a lot of jokes, hate and⊠God knows what else in reference to that thing- But I am fascinated at how uncomfortable it made me feel and actually praise it for that. Speaking from the anime here, however, but the VN is equally demented. That would definitely be an example in which the sex was very much so a representation of high school love disaster. Granted, of course, the anime didnât have graphic sexual scenes, but had⊠Some other things. The VN had both. I actually think that was more of a âmaking it more acceptable for televisionâ move. Itâs an interesting work to look at here, though. Maybe.
I read it a few years ago~ Didnât like it (very slow and boring) but this isnât a review thread~ I think itâs perfectly capable for a character to be humanized without showing him sleep with what looks like a little girl. H-Scenes arenât irreplaceable, especially for Saya no Uta where the meaning of the H-Scenes content is so generic. For Saya no Uta, itâs all about the context. We donât need to see that stuff happening to know that it is happening. Weâre in the head of the protagonist - thatâs a waaaay more powerful tool than H-Scenes.
I donât know why you are talking about 3rd person though - that would obviously ruin it. The main gimmick of the VN is how the MC sees the world.
Give out a free copy of a VN. How many people are going to think âah, Iâll just leave itâ when they hear it has H-scenes in it? The obvious answer is a lot. Sure, once you break into the Visual Novel scene you begin to understand, but taking the first step is always hard, especially when there is questionable content within.
The people who read VNs are a very niche group, and it is dying out. Go look at the VN sales charts. The best way of them dealing with this, is to localize some good all-age VNs for people to read, and then once people are used to the genre, start with the 18+ VNs. To a lot of people out there, VNs are just a gimmick with some adult content added in for âOh Japan!â moments.
They shouldnât have to find a way. âOkay, hereâs some fan-service. Now how can we justify it being there?â
Oh god no, food is yuck. Iâm extremely malnourished. Eat only when necessary!
And yeah, itâs a difference in core opinions. This is the âOpinions and discussionâ thread
Itâs just a natural reaction I guess? The whole idea of it just makes me gag ^^;
Itâs like when you meet someone and dislike them for no reason other than not liking them. There isnât really an explanation, itâs just⊠how things are~
While I donât like the idea of all the H stuff, I can appreciate it when they handle something so delicately. Itâs about the emotions and thoughts the characters have during the scene that matters - not the act.
No, it would not have had the same effect. Especially considering that some extremely graphic stuff happens in SnUâs H scenes, and part of the effect is how graphic it is at times.
[quote=âPepe, post:31, topic:401â]
There are rare cases where a writer would create a story where he intends to keep sex as a major part of storytelling, and perhaps their intent is more than just selling it as pornography.
[/quote]I donât consider it rare at all. Most of the VNs I have read that came out in the past 2-3 years have integrated it very well within their story, which is something that did not seem to be as common in older VNs. Iâd rather not get into the argument of new vs. old though, because most people are not fortunate enough to play VNs as they are releasedâŠ
[quote=âPepe, post:34, topic:401â]
I honestly think that it is impossible to really feel what a character feels because we do not share their experiences. We cannot do this because our feelings are reactions to certain events, and our reactions are shaped by our past experiences.
[/quote]This is one of the more⊠dangerous? forms of Deconstruction Theory. Nothing against using it really, but it seems most Deconstructionalists try to avoid this thought process. It is a very valid point though, so I would love to see more discussion on this topic, but Iâm not sure this thread is the right place to discuss it in more detail.
[quote=âTakafumi, post:36, topic:401â]
I donât know why you are talking about 3rd person though - that would obviously ruin it.
[/quote]The examples where they talk about the sex without directly showing it have moved the topic into a 3rd person perspective. Thatâs why I brought it up.
[quote=âTakafumi, post:36, topic:401â]
Sure, once you break into the Visual Novel scene you begin to understand, but taking the first step is always hard, especially when there is questionable content within.
[/quote]Not really on the topic of H scenes, but this is also why I believe companies like Key are essential to the VN market. Theyâre in a unique place from which they can draw in potential consumers and introduce them to the medium in a more comfortable environment.
[quote=âTakafumi, post:36, topic:401â]
The best way of them dealing with this, is to localize some good all-age VNs for people to read, and then once people are used to the genre, start with the 18+ VNs.
[/quote]I wouldnât call it the âbestâ but this is one path they could take IF, and thatâs a big if, they wanted to include foreign consumers into the market.
[quote=âTakafumi, post:36, topic:401â]
They shouldnât have to find a way. âOkay, hereâs some fan-service. Now how can we justify it being there?â
[/quote]Do you play video games? While I donât think they do the best job of it, thatâs an example of developers having to find a creative way to keep people interested in their product. Look at the Call of Duty franchise. They sell basically the same game every year, but they keep their consumers interested with unique tidbits to every game. Maybe its having really fun to use killstreaks or maybe its Nazi Zombies, the fact remains that creativity is needed in order to keep any market alive.
As far as the âmake the fanservice fit inâ argument; as I said earlier, this problem seems to be a lot less prominent(or at least less visible) in newer VNs.
I will take your word for it, since I havenât played SnU, and wonât be anytime soon, therefore I canât really argue with that.
The only recent VN I played that had H-scenes was Kono Oosora. Although I played the English version, which had no H-scenes, it was kind of obvious were they cut out the sex. And it is of my opinion that most scenes there were pretty disjoint with the rest of the story.
But hey, Iâm not one to generalize based off of only one example
I will admit that I am not even aware of Deconstruction Theory, but it is kind of funny that I inadvertently thought up something about that. But yeah, that would be going too much off-topic haha
The obvious answer in the western world, perhaps. Fact of the matter is, the VN industry is predominantly catering to the Japanese, and, I am by no means an expert on this, but it may not seem as obvious as you would think. Now, when you said âdeath of the industryâ I thought you meant in the Japanese market which, if sales charts are to be believed, it is slowly declining. But if we limit the industry to the localized VN industry, then I donât think there is enough data to figure that out. Localized VNs have been growing slowly over the past few years; both adult and non-adult versions. So yeah, itâs really hard to say as to whether it is causing the death of either industry, whether in Japan of the rest of the world.
(off-topic, but I wonder how the Chinese VN industry is doing. Itâs at least bigger than the English one )
[quote=âPepe, post:34, topic:401â]
I honestly think that it is impossible to really feel what a character feels because we do not share their experiences. We cannot do this because our feelings are reactions to certain events, and our reactions are shaped by our past experiences. What I do think we feel when we read VNs in first-person is empathy. We empathize with the character because of the way the story is written.
[/quote]Yeah, I will admit I exaggerated a little for effect. And that is exactly why some people love VNs and anime that other people just canât get into. I think we should continue this discussion in another thread.
Just to clarify, I donât think any story needs to show sex or even imply sex to fully express the relationship between characters. I would never say: âthis story would be so much better with sex.â But as @AngelofDeath720 said earlier, VNs are one of the few mediums where its OK to use these themes so explicitly, so I donâ think its wrong to use it if done correctly.
If you donât want to see sex, just like if you donât want to see violence or gore, then donât read the VN. It could be considered pornography, but thats only a negative term if used for âimmoralâ reasons, which I have to say, is most of the time.
[quote=âTakafumi, post:36, topic:401â]
Itâs just a natural reaction I guess? The whole idea of it just makes me gag ^^;Itâs like when you meet someone and dislike them for no reason other than not liking them. There isnât really an explanation, itâs just⊠how things are~
[/quote]May I ask a somewhat serious question? Do you find sex and nudity disgusting in themselves? What I mean is, stuff like pornography, H-scenes, etc aside, would you be disgusted by the act itself if it was you and whomever you love alone in your room?
[quote=âTakafumi, post:36, topic:401â]
Give out a free copy of a VN. How many people are going to think âah, Iâll just leave itâ when they hear it has H-scenes in it? The obvious answer is a lot.
[/quote]So how do you explain the popularity of Katawa Shoujo?
