H-scenes in Visual Novels: Opinions and discussion

[AngelofDeath720]

[quote=“Takafumi, post:21, topic:401”]
Those scenes are in Saya no Uta for the same reason they show up in Mature films. I do believe the stories could still work perfectly without those scenes, as has been proved throughout the history of media based around Mature themes. Having Mature themes however, is not an excuse to delve straight into the Porn industry. For me, it just ruins part of what could be a good story, and I do believe it is distasteful.
[/quote]I have to ask, have you read Saya no Uta? (that’s just me wondering)
Theres a specific reason I say the H scenes cannot be removed or altered. The first person aspect of SnU’s H scenes helps readers identify with an otherwise inhuman protagonist. If those same H scenes had been altered to a third person perspective, or removed entirely, I couldn’t have even considered Fuminori to be a human; and a very large part of the impact of that game comes from identifying with him. The other example I normally use is Yosuga no Sora, a VN with an anime (yes, anime, not hentai) adaptation. The H scenes were left in with the anime because the animators believed it could not have been done without them. Also, I’d like to point out that mature films are usually based off books, a medium that also does not usually include first person sex scenes; so it’s not really fair to use that comparison since the source material most likely did not include direct depictions of sex in the first place.

[quote=“Takafumi, post:21, topic:401”]
it also contributes heavily to the death of the industry.
[/quote]Where is the evidence of this? I would argue that its still helping the industry expand. Especially considering there are companies like Key to draw in the “all ages” crowd, who may or may not expand into eroge territory later on.

[quote=“Bizkitdoh, post:24, topic:401”]
‘is it art or is it fan service’
[/quote]if we remove Nukige from the picture (which I don’t think anyone disagrees are just for sexual entertainment) I think most developers have/will find a creative way to get it to lead to the former.

[quote=“yerian98, post:25, topic:401”]
Lots of people say that the author’s purpose doesn’t matter, it’s the fans’ interpretation that decides what the work really means.
[/quote]Deconstruction theory <3 This is probably my favorite school of literary criticism, and is actually the way I find myself naturally viewing things that I read. I actually almost wrote one of my English final’s on Rewrite from this perspective, but I opted to do Dark Souls instead since I felt it would fit better with the theme.

[quote=“Takafumi, post:26, topic:401”]
I dislike H-Scenes for the same reason I dislike a meal - the contents make me feel sick.
[/quote]Surely there are meals that you actually enjoy though?
This leads to a difference in core opinions though; I have been known to eat food that makes my stomach feel terrible just because I enjoy the taste. Though, as I mentioned earlier, I can’t taste very many foods, so I try to enjoy what I can actually taste, even if it makes me feel sick afterward.

[quote=“Bizkitdoh, post:27, topic:401”]
It’s supposed to be a beautiful thing.
[/quote]^this
it’s significantly more powerful when it comes from a neutral party, which is why I hadn’t said it yet, but I very much agree with this, and think that our society should be a little more accepting of such a beautiful act.

[Yerian]

Just curious, what about it disgusts you so much? I personally feel disgusted when its stuff like rape, or cheating, or unnecessary weird fetishes, or when its just the characters pleasuring themselves and its not really love. However, these can sometimes be used as purposeful plot devices in order to deliberately make the reader feel disgusted, and I can appreciate that. But you seem to feel that way about all H-scenes. No need to go into detail if you’re uncomfortable with telling us, I’m just interested.

[Pepe]

I don’t normally use SnU for this argument, but since it seems a few other people here have actually read it, I’ll go with it. Saya no Uta quite literally could not have been done without sex scenes. If you were to take those out you would be directly removing a HUGE part of the protagonist’s motivations and, perhaps more specifically, he would have lost his humanity. Having sex with Saya is part of what keeps Fuminori sane-ish.

Would it have had the same effect if they kept the sex but remove the H-scene? You would still get the notions of him needing sex to keep his sanity when everything else is distorted, but you wouldn’t be getting the nudity or the “oohs” and “aahs” during said scene.

If those same H scenes had been altered to a third person perspective, or removed entirely, I couldn’t have even considered Fuminori to be a human; and a very large part of the impact of that game comes from identifying with him.

Would it be possible to alter them to still be from a first-person perspective, while withholding the details? I haven’t read Saya no Uta and this is a genuine question I must ask, coming from people who have read it.

KonoSora got a lot of backlash for IMHHW removing them

I can understand KonoSora’s argument: I, personally, do not find it a necessity to the story to keep the H-scenes, but I can imagine some people would have qualms against it, especially in the Ageha route. After all, friends-with-kissing probably isn’t as a confusing relationship as friends-with-sex. Moenovel could have chosen to rewrite the sex scenes into non-H scenes, but they didn’t do that, which was a pretty drastic decision. Would they have gotten the same backlash if they kept a remnant of the scene without the H? Maybe; maybe not.

My counterargument to this is Symphonic Rain. I honestly wouldn’t have gotten the same impact if Chris hadn’t practically forced Falsita into sex, and would be quite disappointed if they removed that scene. That scene isn’t an H-scene, but a well-written sex scene.

Another thing that I find peculiar is, in the instance of a VN having H-Scenes that can be easily added or removed without harming the story at all- Is the developers intention not simply fan service? I can understand viewing it as an art piece in that it’s ‘just how VNs do things, no censorship, etc’- But I find it difficult to believe, with the exception of very clear story driven H-Scenes that are the authors creation, that they aren’t created with pornography in mind and to entertain a section of the fanbase.

I think we can conclude that, for many developers, adding in H-scenes is simply done to sell the game as a form of pornography. It is common in the VN industry, and, as @AngelOfDeath720 said earlier, the industry would not be able to survive without it.

The stories themselves could have been made simply because a developer told them to make a story that could have sex scenes. Or if a story was first conceived, then told later on “it has to have sex.” In those cases, they could seemingly be removed without having any impact.
There are rare cases where a writer would create a story where he intends to keep sex as a major part of storytelling, and perhaps their intent is more than just selling it as pornography. I would consider it art, but I will still look at it as pornographic art. Should it be written in a way that removes the H, I will no longer consider it pornographic.

The other example I normally use is Yosuga no Sora, a VN with an anime (yes, anime, not hentai) adaptation. The H scenes were left in with the anime because the animators believed it could not have been done without them.

Adding in to that example is the anime adaptation of White Album 2. They kept the sex scene, and did it so beautifully while removing the H contents. It’s that sort of treatment that I would expect to see if I want to no longer consider something as pornographic.

A lot of people tend to glance over the fact that there’s sex saying that it’s porn or entertainment, which is quite upsetting to me as someone who’s all about appreciating what life brings or has to offer. It’s like that kind of person has become jaded over sexual relations, which is a mindset that runs rampant in today’s society. ‘What sex means’ is completely lost to them at that point. It’s supposed to be a beautiful thing.

Agreed. Sex is a beautiful thing, but it is also a very private and emotional act between couples. What reason do we outsiders have to know the nitty-gritty details of this act, if not for our own satisfaction? What I am trying to say is that there is a point in which sex becomes pornography when enough details are made known.

To summarize how I feel, when a VN has explicit H scenes (not simple sex scenes but nudity with details on the act itself), then I will consider it pornography. If a VN has a sex scene, with no H, then I won’t consider it pornography. Pornography can be art, it can be part of a story, or simply be there to appease those looking for it, but it still remains porn, and when a VN contains it, that is how I will view it: as a form of pornography.

This is slightly off-topic now, but I think the reason why people are so defensive about pornography, saying it is art or whatnot, is because society has shamed people into viewing it as something unethical. They try to justify pornography as ethical because it is art. I don’t believe this, because I do not see pornography as unethical. As such, I do not feel the need to label it as something else to justify it as ethical; because it already is.

[Yerian]

What reason do we outsiders have to know the nitty-gritty details of this act

Part of what makes VNs special as a medium is that, as they are almost always told from 1st person POV, the reader is able to become the main character. You are supposed to feel what they feel, know what they know, and maybe most importantly, see as they see. If you think of the VN as a game or a novel, then yeah it is pornography. But if you think of it as an experience, then it becomes more involving, more real (maybe?). Of course this is only applicable when the H-scenes are done “tastefully.”

This also goes back to how the sex is presented and how you as a reader choose to see/interpret it.

[JDAM_Cid]

The West have been doing well the job of demonizing sex as something worse than, as @yerian98 said, violence. Such demonizing reached Japan through stuff that happened in late 19th century and then we see black bars and mosaics in adult material there ¬.¬

This is slightly off-topic now, but I think the reason why people are so defensive about pornography, saying it is art or whatnot, is because society has shamed people into viewing it as something unethical. They try to justify pornography as ethical because it is art. I don’t believe this, because I do not see pornography as unethical. As such, I do not feel the need to label it as something else to justify it as ethical; because it already is.

Well, it’s not intrinsicaly ethical. It depends on the existance of consensus between the parts. Without such consensus, it’s not better than rape or other sex crimes. Think of the guys who upload their vids having sex with their ex gfs to the net…

[Pepe]

Part of what makes VNs special as a medium is that, as they are almost always told from 1st person POV, the reader is able to become the main character. You are supposed to feel what they feel, know what they know, and maybe most importantly, see as they see. If you think of the VN as a game or a novel, then yeah it is pornography. But if you think of it as an experience, then it becomes more involving, more real (maybe?).

I honestly think that it is impossible to really feel what a character feels because we do not share their experiences. We cannot do this because our feelings are reactions to certain events, and our reactions are shaped by our past experiences. What I do think we feel when we read VNs in first-person is empathy. We empathize with the character because of the way the story is written. That being said, I don’t think we need the nitty-gritty details of intercourse in order to empathize with the emotions the character feels when it happens.

That is just my opinion, though. I must admit, that is an insight that I neglected to take into account, and I thank you for that.

Well, it’s not intrinsicaly ethical. It depends on the existance of consensus between the parts. Without such consensus, it’s not better than rape or other sex crimes. Think of the guys who upload their vids having sex with their ex gfs to the net…

Ah, yes, touché. That becomes unethical, not because of the content, but because it is a breach of privacy between two people.

[Bizkitdoh]

However, these can sometimes be used as purposeful plot devices in order to deliberately make the reader feel disgusted

School Days, anyone? www

I see a lot of jokes, hate and… God knows what else in reference to that thing- But I am fascinated at how uncomfortable it made me feel and actually praise it for that. Speaking from the anime here, however, but the VN is equally demented. That would definitely be an example in which the sex was very much so a representation of high school love disaster. Granted, of course, the anime didn’t have graphic sexual scenes, but had… Some other things. The VN had both. I actually think that was more of a ‘making it more acceptable for television’ move. It’s an interesting work to look at here, though. Maybe.

[Takafumi]

I have to ask, have you read Saya no Uta?

I read it a few years ago~ Didn’t like it (very slow and boring) but this isn’t a review thread~ I think it’s perfectly capable for a character to be humanized without showing him sleep with what looks like a little girl. H-Scenes aren’t irreplaceable, especially for Saya no Uta where the meaning of the H-Scenes content is so generic. For Saya no Uta, it’s all about the context. We don’t need to see that stuff happening to know that it is happening. We’re in the head of the protagonist - that’s a waaaay more powerful tool than H-Scenes.
I don’t know why you are talking about 3rd person though - that would obviously ruin it. The main gimmick of the VN is how the MC sees the world.

Where is the evidence of this? I would argue that its still helping the industry expand.

Give out a free copy of a VN. How many people are going to think “ah, I’ll just leave it” when they hear it has H-scenes in it? The obvious answer is a lot. Sure, once you break into the Visual Novel scene you begin to understand, but taking the first step is always hard, especially when there is questionable content within.
The people who read VNs are a very niche group, and it is dying out. Go look at the VN sales charts. The best way of them dealing with this, is to localize some good all-age VNs for people to read, and then once people are used to the genre, start with the 18+ VNs. To a lot of people out there, VNs are just a gimmick with some adult content added in for “Oh Japan!” moments.

will find a creative way

They shouldn’t have to find a way. “Okay, here’s some fan-service. Now how can we justify it being there?”

Surely there are meals that you actually enjoy though? This leads to a difference in core opinions though

Oh god no, food is yuck. I’m extremely malnourished. Eat only when necessary!
And yeah, it’s a difference in core opinions. This is the “Opinions and discussion” thread

Just curious, what about it disgusts you so much?

It’s just a natural reaction I guess? The whole idea of it just makes me gag ^^;
It’s like when you meet someone and dislike them for no reason other than not liking them. There isn’t really an explanation, it’s just… how things are~

They kept the sex scene, and did it so beautifully while removing the H contents.

While I don’t like the idea of all the H stuff, I can appreciate it when they handle something so delicately. It’s about the emotions and thoughts the characters have during the scene that matters - not the act.

[AngelofDeath720]

Would it have had the same effect if they kept the sex but remove the H-scene? You would still get the notions of him needing sex to keep his sanity when everything else is distorted, but you wouldn’t be getting the nudity or the “oohs” and “aahs” during said scene.

No, it would not have had the same effect. Especially considering that some extremely graphic stuff happens in SnU’s H scenes, and part of the effect is how graphic it is at times.

[quote=“Pepe, post:31, topic:401”]
There are rare cases where a writer would create a story where he intends to keep sex as a major part of storytelling, and perhaps their intent is more than just selling it as pornography.
[/quote]I don’t consider it rare at all. Most of the VNs I have read that came out in the past 2-3 years have integrated it very well within their story, which is something that did not seem to be as common in older VNs. I’d rather not get into the argument of new vs. old though, because most people are not fortunate enough to play VNs as they are released…

[quote=“Pepe, post:34, topic:401”]
I honestly think that it is impossible to really feel what a character feels because we do not share their experiences. We cannot do this because our feelings are reactions to certain events, and our reactions are shaped by our past experiences.
[/quote]This is one of the more… dangerous? forms of Deconstruction Theory. Nothing against using it really, but it seems most Deconstructionalists try to avoid this thought process. It is a very valid point though, so I would love to see more discussion on this topic, but I’m not sure this thread is the right place to discuss it in more detail.

[quote=“Takafumi, post:36, topic:401”]
I don’t know why you are talking about 3rd person though - that would obviously ruin it.
[/quote]The examples where they talk about the sex without directly showing it have moved the topic into a 3rd person perspective. That’s why I brought it up.

[quote=“Takafumi, post:36, topic:401”]
Sure, once you break into the Visual Novel scene you begin to understand, but taking the first step is always hard, especially when there is questionable content within.
[/quote]Not really on the topic of H scenes, but this is also why I believe companies like Key are essential to the VN market. They’re in a unique place from which they can draw in potential consumers and introduce them to the medium in a more comfortable environment.

[quote=“Takafumi, post:36, topic:401”]
The best way of them dealing with this, is to localize some good all-age VNs for people to read, and then once people are used to the genre, start with the 18+ VNs.
[/quote]I wouldn’t call it the “best” but this is one path they could take IF, and that’s a big if, they wanted to include foreign consumers into the market.

[quote=“Takafumi, post:36, topic:401”]
They shouldn’t have to find a way. “Okay, here’s some fan-service. Now how can we justify it being there?”
[/quote]Do you play video games? While I don’t think they do the best job of it, that’s an example of developers having to find a creative way to keep people interested in their product. Look at the Call of Duty franchise. They sell basically the same game every year, but they keep their consumers interested with unique tidbits to every game. Maybe its having really fun to use killstreaks or maybe its Nazi Zombies, the fact remains that creativity is needed in order to keep any market alive.
As far as the “make the fanservice fit in” argument; as I said earlier, this problem seems to be a lot less prominent(or at least less visible) in newer VNs.

[Pepe]

No, it would not have had the same effect. Especially considering that some extremely graphic stuff happens in SnU’s H scenes, and part of the effect is how graphic it is at times.

I will take your word for it, since I haven’t played SnU, and won’t be anytime soon, therefore I can’t really argue with that.

I don’t consider it rare at all. Most of the VNs I have read that came out in the past 2-3 years have integrated it very well within their story, which is something that did not seem to be as common in older VNs.

The only recent VN I played that had H-scenes was Kono Oosora. Although I played the English version, which had no H-scenes, it was kind of obvious were they cut out the sex. And it is of my opinion that most scenes there were pretty disjoint with the rest of the story.
But hey, I’m not one to generalize based off of only one example

This is one of the more… dangerous? forms of Deconstruction Theory. Nothing against using it really, but it seems most Deconstructionalists try to avoid this thought process. It is a very valid point though, so I would love to see more discussion on this topic, but I’m not sure this thread is the right place to discuss it in more detail.

I will admit that I am not even aware of Deconstruction Theory, but it is kind of funny that I inadvertently thought up something about that. But yeah, that would be going too much off-topic haha

Give out a free copy of a VN. How many people are going to think “ah, I’ll just leave it” when they hear it has H-scenes in it? The obvious answer is a lot.

The obvious answer in the western world, perhaps. Fact of the matter is, the VN industry is predominantly catering to the Japanese, and, I am by no means an expert on this, but it may not seem as obvious as you would think. Now, when you said “death of the industry” I thought you meant in the Japanese market which, if sales charts are to be believed, it is slowly declining. But if we limit the industry to the localized VN industry, then I don’t think there is enough data to figure that out. Localized VNs have been growing slowly over the past few years; both adult and non-adult versions. So yeah, it’s really hard to say as to whether it is causing the death of either industry, whether in Japan of the rest of the world.
(off-topic, but I wonder how the Chinese VN industry is doing. It’s at least bigger than the English one )

[Yerian]

[quote=“Pepe, post:34, topic:401”]
I honestly think that it is impossible to really feel what a character feels because we do not share their experiences. We cannot do this because our feelings are reactions to certain events, and our reactions are shaped by our past experiences. What I do think we feel when we read VNs in first-person is empathy. We empathize with the character because of the way the story is written.
[/quote]Yeah, I will admit I exaggerated a little for effect. And that is exactly why some people love VNs and anime that other people just can’t get into. I think we should continue this discussion in another thread.

Just to clarify, I don’t think any story needs to show sex or even imply sex to fully express the relationship between characters. I would never say: “this story would be so much better with sex.” But as @AngelofDeath720 said earlier, VNs are one of the few mediums where its OK to use these themes so explicitly, so I don’ think its wrong to use it if done correctly.

If you don’t want to see sex, just like if you don’t want to see violence or gore, then don’t read the VN. It could be considered pornography, but thats only a negative term if used for “immoral” reasons, which I have to say, is most of the time.

[quote=“Takafumi, post:36, topic:401”]
It’s just a natural reaction I guess? The whole idea of it just makes me gag ^^;It’s like when you meet someone and dislike them for no reason other than not liking them. There isn’t really an explanation, it’s just… how things are~
[/quote]May I ask a somewhat serious question? Do you find sex and nudity disgusting in themselves? What I mean is, stuff like pornography, H-scenes, etc aside, would you be disgusted by the act itself if it was you and whomever you love alone in your room?

[quote=“Takafumi, post:36, topic:401”]
Give out a free copy of a VN. How many people are going to think “ah, I’ll just leave it” when they hear it has H-scenes in it? The obvious answer is a lot.
[/quote]So how do you explain the popularity of Katawa Shoujo?

[Bizkitdoh]

So how do you explain the popularity of Katawa Shoujo?

To be fair- You can turn off H-Scenes. This was something I was told immediately when informed of the VN.

[Takafumi]

Do you find sex and nudity disgusting in themselves?

Hmm… I think nudity can be okay depending on how it is presented, and how people think of it. I’d still prefer to avoid it, but it’s bearable~ Reproduction is just yuck though, and the person I like sees the subject even more negatively than me ^^; She hates humanity full stop. Very scary woman~

So how do you explain the popularity of Katawa Shoujo?

Let’s see… Option to turn H-Scenes off? Check. Originating from 4chan? Check. A gimmick that people would say “Oh, Japan!” to? Check. Youtubers playing it for a laugh? Check. An audience largely unaware of romantic fiction? Check. In English, for free, with a simple download? Check.

When asking people who discovered it how they found it, one of the above is usually the answer~ (and I’ve seen a lot of people walking around with KS T-Shirts over here in the UK.)

[Yerian]

@Takafumi and @Bizkitdoh Hypothetically, do you think including H-off option in all VNs would increase the market all that drastically? I will give you the 4chan part though, I truthfully forgot about that.

[Bizkitdoh]

Drastically? Probably not. But it would be helpful. Reasons being more people being confident in marketing it to others via word of mouth and for people like Taka who just do not want it and would feel more comfort in knowing that VNs where it is excessive it won’t be a problem or a deterrent.

The reason I note that it wouldn’t be all that drastic is because good VNs without H-Scenes already exist. Key and 5pb/Nitroplus for example, which can get people to love VNs enough (because they’re awesome) to be willing to read a VN with H-Scenes and skip them if they don’t want to see it. However, not everyone may like those VNs. Going on the fact that there is no H-Content alone severely limits your ‘entry level’ VNs. Thus, H-Scenes are an unavoidable hindrance because you simply do not change a whole societies mindset so easily. I can’t even get people to watch anime!

[Yerian]

Yeah, think it would be helpful too. I guess my question was more aimed at Taka who seems to think H-scenes are really hindering the market.

I can’t even get people to watch anime!

-Sigh- Thats a very different but even more important topic. This is the exact reason I have to get on forums to talk to people.

[Takafumi]

I definitely think it is hindering the market… and honestly, I think it hinders the market more in Japan than it does in the west. While content like that is slightly frowned upon in the west, the west is becoming increasingly involved with the internet, video gaming, and Youtube. The stereotypes people once threw on gamers are fading rapidly - apart from in the TV industry’s eyes. As such, all the other strange content popularized by the internet are becoming accepted more.
There may be a lot of people who shy away from VNs or even anime because of the perverted nature they show to the eyes of the unknowing, but you get one slightly popular Youtuber to mention it, or get it onto the front page of reddit, and lots of people will try it because the internet said it was worth it. H-Scenes are a hurdle in the west, but it appears to be a lot worse in Japan.

In Japan the stereotypes aren’t going away so quickly, and the prevalent type of Japanese VN is pure Eroge. (We have a good mix of English translated VNs.)
You will already be labeled as an Otaku for reasons including: watching anime after your childhood has passed, playing computer games instead of going out, or just wearing a backpack and jeans.
For the most part, you are expected to play out as a child, study as a teenager, focus on work as a young adult, settle down and start a family as an adult, and take care of your parents when you become a parent yourself. It’s a very family-based lifestyle. You shouldn’t be wasting that time playing a porn game.
Sure, this is slowly passing, but not following the expected lifestyle in Japan is frowned upon much more than in western countries.

…
Citation needed…

[Yerian]

Very good point. I guess I kinda assumed you were referring to the west previously. As much flack as we sometimes get in the west for being fans of anime and VNs, their popularity over here is growing, while in Japan, otaku has negative connotations. I find it very strange and hard to remember that our hobby is often looked down upon much more in the country it comes from.

[Wicklebee]

Reproduction is just yuck though, and the person I like sees the subject even more negatively than me ^^

So basically all I see here is your real complaint. That you don’t like sex in and on itself. More than likely you take offense in characters engaging in it due to your disgust, therefore pinning far too much bias of this disgust into your thoughts.

So there’s no logic in arguing with you, since you can’t stand the “where babies come from” part of the story.

[JDAM_Cid]

Just my ten “centavos” (cents, but for lesser currencies):

From what I can recall, there seems to be a breach between Key fans from “Clannad and above” era, and the more veterans who started with Kanon, Air or even One (in the Tactics era); the latter frowned upon the idea that Clannad won’t include ero scenes because grew up with them in Key works. That line of thought spawned Tomoyo After

The former, on the other hand, avoid the H-scenes of most works like a plague, deeming them as unnecessary or even detrimental to the characters or the stories

Edit: phallacy detected. Not all veterans liked the ero, nor all novices despise them u.uU

The peak of such a struggle was Little Busters! First, came the non-ero one. Veterans complained harder than in Clannad. Then LB!EX happened. Novices complained. Then came other versions and the idea of having to appeal to new markets against appealing to the seasoned customers who were there since the beginning. Don’t ask me what spawned Kud Wafter!

That reminds me: do your opinion of a character rises, lowers or remains equal after seeing an H-scene or a Rule 34 of such character, VN or otherwise?