When I say that it takes a long time for religion to catch up I’m not saying that it takes a long time for religious institutions to comment on and form opinions (like with birth control). What I’m saying is that those religions that are primarily based off of the teachings of ancient texts will tend to be conservative with respect to changes because the material that they’re based on doesn’t change.
Absolutely, as long as 1) You are respectful (as you seem to have been), as religion is a pretty sensitive topic (but hell, so is sex, heh.), and 2) You keep it relevant to H-scenes or sexual content in general. Its OK if the discussion gets a little off-topic, as all discussions will, but try to keep it focused on how religion affects your or other’s views on H-scenes. Thanks for asking~
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It’s true that, without a philosophy, making decisions on stuff not covered in infallible religious texts would be difficult. Without a good philosophical basis, though, they wouldn’t have a convincing proof. That’s one reason religions without a strong philosophical doctrine splinter into different sects very easily.
H-Scene in my opinion? Put that H-Scene away from me, because I think some VNs don’t fit to have that scenes.
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Stumbled upon this topic, and thought that I might want to give my thoughts on it.
I usually approach the topic of sexuality in fiction like how most creative writers do it, by establishing the difference between erotica and pornography. Basically, erotica is, well, portrayal of sex in fiction as part of the story, while pornography is just there for mere titillation, essentially. That wasn’t clear enough, so let’s just say that erotica, when well-written, can be a good way to portray the human side of characters and relationships, and also move forward a story. Sexuality is such a human thing, and having to shy away from such a topic doesn’t really help.
Of course, there are the cringeworthy badly-written sex scenes that needs to be burned down because it’s just that bad. And no, I am not touching any VNs with explicit rape scenes with a 10-foot pole.
I personally only read really few VNs, and of those really few, only two of them had H-scenes on it, namely Katawa Shoujo and Air.
I personally agree to some of their readers that the H-scenes in KS were fairly tasteful. Admittedly I tend to delve into fiction wearing feminist lens, and the thing about KS is that the women involved actually had agency when those scenes happen (even Hanako’s, and it was explained pretty well), and the MC just happens to be responsible enough to care about his partner’s well-being. (Some of the H-CGs I’ve seen on VNDB… looks really painful*.)
As for AIR… I can’t even tell. They don’t even look arousing (the painful looks on their faces ugh), and they are intentionally not even part of its narrative, so it just comes off as just there for the sake of calling their VN an eroge.
As for my say for the H-scenes in VNs, well. I appreciate well-written erotica (found it slightly strange that the ones in KS weren’t much appreciated here, especially considering I found myself liking it… or is it just AIR’s was so bad or I just haven’t read enough VNs?) and it need not be important to the story - it just have to make sense in the narrative. And by making sense, namely they don’t feel that they’re just shoehorned in for the sake of fanservice.
As for porn, as much as I don’t like it (because no feminist would like the idea of using women, or people in general, as mere sexual objects), it will just always be there.
*(This is exactly why I seem to find a hard time looking for a good VN to read: I’m seriously afraid of these kinds of scenes :<)
BTW, regarding H-scenes in VNs mostly portraying under-age characters, I think it boils down to what the age of consent is in its culture - as for Japan, it’s 13 years of age. It seems more complicated than just that though, so I’ll quote Wikipedia on this, though I wouldn’t call it reliable though 
The Japanese Penal Code sets a minimal age of consent of 13. However, the Children Welfare Act chapter 34 forbids any act of “fornication” (淫行) with children (here defined as anyone under 18 years of age) with prefectures and districts specifying further details in (largely similar) “obscenity ordinances” (淫行条例) like adding exemptions for sex in the context of a sincere romantic relationship (typically determined by parental approval).
Lolicon/shotcon porn is just going too far though. Shows/games portraying that just get away with it because the character design isn’t particularly indicative of their actual age (like how Kudryavka who looks 10 is actually 15). So ugh.
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Beware, 1500-word essay incoming.
I was actually just thinking of this topic yesterday, before @BlackHayate02 brought it up again here. I was thinking about how my opinion on H-scenes changed even just over the span of time when this thread was first active, but even more so how it has changed to date. And I think that’s OK: even if I had originally been 100% opposed to H-scenes and was now all for them, it would be OK to change. We are all constantly having new experiences that affect our mindsets on everything in various ways.
Anyways, I was pondering: Why is having sex scenes in the VN medium so controversial, and is often seen as a major barrier for many people against exploring the greatness and depth of the medium, while American TV shows such as Game of Thrones (really great show, by the way) are highly praised and accepted, despite also having gratuitous sex and nudity that doesn’t seem to necessarily further the plot?
I personally think sex and sexuality are a topic that need to be explored in media. They are special, human themes that are relevant to all of our lives, whether we want to face it or not. Hell, usually its the media’s job to shove things we dont necessarily want to face in our, well, face. I appreciate that VNs, so often heavily dealing with romance, recognize, as many other mediums often do, that usually romance involves sex. And yet it all so often seems so… tasteless, or tactless. That fact isn’t limited to VNs, but with VNs specifically the problem seems to stem from the explicivity of the sex. The fact of the matter is, the large majority of H-scenes seem like just porn, even in the rare case where it wasn’t meant to be.
But still, how are H-scenes in VNs different from Kahleesi walking around naked or full-frontally having sex in Game of Thrones? As discussed several times before in the many posts of this topic above, you dont necessarily need to be explicit to portray sex, nudity and their implications, although perhaps explicivity does intensify the themes. Well, the first thing that comes to mind is length. Sex or nude scenes in Game of Thrones, as in most movies and TV shows, are a few seconds long to a minute or so at the most. Most VN H-scenes, however, last for several minutes. Another part is movement. Shows and movies can constantly switch camera angles, repeatedly causing the brain to recalculate and makes the viewer not feel so much as if they were staring; as opposed to VNs, where the reader is continuously focused point blank: it intensifies the image. Lastly, despite being pixelated, there’s no denying that VNs often blatantly show off genitalia, while shows and movies often even make a point of avoiding showing that. Whether or not it is rightful that actually seeing genitalia makes people more uncomfortable than seeing breasts and simply the motion of having sex, it certainly seems to lend itself to being more porn-like. (There’s also the fact that VN images are not real people, they’re drawn. This could possibly make some people more uncomfortable, while others less, so I wont get into that.)
Ok, so thats all well and good. Maybe the fact that it seems like porn affects you, maybe it doesn’t. Either way, it should still be getting the same messages of sex and sexuality across… right? Then why does it feel so… off? Why is this ineffective at conveying the themes? Well, first of all, whether we like it or not, society and culture has shaped our minds to think about sex in a certain way. This extends to porn specifically as well: whether you personally think it’s wrong, or dont care much either way, or whatever, everyone seems to agree on two general things: it should be hidden, and it’s kinda shameful to watch it. Either way, its not really something you… talk about. Thus, when a serious story is chugging along, and suddenly it starts to seem like porn, it’s off-putting. Even if you know its coming, and even if you believe its still trying to convey x message, your mind still thinks, “This isnt supposed to be here.”
The second part is probably level of arousal. Im not really referring to this on the conscious level, although that can be a factor too. I’m referring hormonal instincts here. In your brain, sex = dopamine (otherwise known as the feel-good chemical). Up to a certain point, the longer and more intensely your brain is exposed to sex or the idea of it, the more testosterone, estrogen, and endorphines its going to start pumping. And, if your brain is familiar with porn, this is gonna click even faster, because your brain has already established a pathway for that. The problem is, these hormones tend to take precedent over whatever else from the rest of the experience may be affecting your brain at that moment, due to there instinctual nature. To put it simply, the explicivity can counteract the very themes the scene was trying to convey (again, this is supposing the scene was trying to convey any such themes at all).
So, assuming that at this point you agree with me that H-scenes do certainly seem more like porn than nude/sex scenes in movies and shows, and assuming that you agree with me that we would probably be able to get more out of them if they were more like their TV counterparts, why are we still stuck with what we’ve got? Well, for one, VNs started out all almost all games that were supposed to be porn! And theres still a relatively sizable market for such games today. At this point, a VN with sex in it, whether its for the porn or not, is expected to be conveyed in the traditional way. Are we starting to get away from this, especially with the recent shift toward selling to the Western market? I would say yes, we could be.
However, I think to a certain, though lesser extent, perhaps the audience needs to change a bit as well. Most of us, whether we admit it or not, are probably wary of seeing sex and sexuality expressed in media because it’s taking something private, and making it public. Some people will inevitably say: “Well of course I feel that way! Nobody ever explicitly shows a person going to the bathroom in media!” To which I respond: “Urination and defecation don’t create life!” Aha! Life. Thats the answer. Why are sex and sexuality so important? Life. Why do they deserve to be expressed in our media, which is supposed to be an expression ourselves and our culture? Life. And what are we taking for granted that causes us, as a society, to be so scared of portraying sex and sexuality in a thoughtful way in media? LIFE.
I realize that I’ve gone from seemingly academic and scientific to almost religious and philosophical in the blink of an eye, but really this is what makes this topic so important to me. Life is kinda essential in case you haven’t noticed, and at some point, it is inevitably taken for granted by everyone who has it. In fact, I would love to discuss why the fact that the foremost purpose of sex is to create life is so often ignored in media, especially VNs, but that will definitely have to be saved for another time.
For now, I leave you with this: Sometimes sex is added to media just to make it seem more “mature.” Some intelligent people say that adding it for such reasons and in the usual way is in fact immature. Im not positive I agree with either stance though. Sex and sexuality need to be acknowledged, for sure, and I admire VNs for doing so. But just existing is not good enough, and I am certainly not satisfied with the way it is currently handled. And as much as I’ve rambled today, and before, we havent even begun to touch on all of the facets this subject entails. This isnt something that just changes. It took until halfway through the 20th century just to show a married couple sleeping in the same bed on TV. But I believe it will change, as long as we, not only as consumers, but as a society, allow it to.
By the way, if your interested, Extra Credits has done a video on Sex in Video Games, which is, as usual, thoughtful and well expressed. Its probably very relevant to how sex and sexuality are portrayed in VNs, although maybe to a lesser extent in your typical video game. Check it out here if you’re interested.
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Great post. I don’t have the energy to write up a worthy response, even though the topic is one I would love to write on eventually. I just want to add that another point I rarely see addressed is what the actual writing of the H scene is like. Due to my own personal convictions, I almost always skip the scenes so I can’t hold any informed opinion, but we are talking about visual novels. Thus, it stands to reason that if we’re discussing the appropriateness of such scenes, that we should look at the actual text content as well.
I am sure that there are a bunch of scenes that can be described as no better than fetish pandering. At the same time, I suspect there are scenes which actually hold some degree of writing quality. Saya no Uta is kind of “the” example that’s been brought up even in this thread numerous times. The text during sex scenes aren’t really about the sex so much as they are about the protagonist’s mental state. The writing is absolutely helpful to the theme and plot of the story. Even if you removed all the images and explicit sexual language, there would still be important text about his thought process, and the actual sex does, arguably, serve to bolster this storytelling.
Aside from thematically, the text can still be completely erotic without being pandering. Text that is more about the relationship between the characters should be more accepted than text that is purely describing bodily functions. Are the characters saying anything even mildly important or are they just being perverts? Does the text serve to show a progression in their relationship or is it just a self-inserting scene about sex? A perfect example that comes to my mind is Tsurioto. If it weren’t for the images, you almost wouldn’t notice it was a sex scene because the character chemistry and bantering felt exactly like any other conversation between them except…sex. Like yeah sex, but the text was clearly about the same characters I had grown to love. Heck, I was even laughing at some parts because that’s how their relationship is always like. Contrast that to something where characterization disappears and the writing is just depicting sexual acts that in reality could be between any characters from any story. The difference in quality is clear, and I think a major problem with VNs is most of them are not quality writing. Unfortunately, as Yerian alludes to, the Japanese market usually doesn’t care about this because most of the customers just want their porn so why bother changing? But hey, I’ve barely read a handful so maybe I’m wrong.
Just my 2 cents. I know I didn’t even begin to cover every aspect I could.
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Correct me if I’m wrong, but I guess the gist of what you’re trying to say is: We, as an audience, should be more accepting of sex and sexuality as it is an important aspect of life. However, the way these themes are portrayed in Visual Novels make it appear as if it is nothing more than smut. This does tie into @BlackHayate02’s idea about the difference between erotica and pornography, and I think @Kaze made a great follow-up as well.
Perhaps H-scenes can be more than just porn; it’s just that nobody writes it as such. @Yerian gave the example of the Game of Thrones series, and after having finished the first book of that, I can give a comparison. The depiction of those scenes in the book are, well, explicit. VERY explicit. At the same time, they often do not add into the story or characterization. They are, however, short, many of which last only a paragraph or two. While your imagination may run wild, the shortness of these depictions make it less capable of being fap material, and more likely to be something that one can view with a straight mind. I’m not a specialist, but perhaps the shortness of this prevents the flow of dopamine into your brain.
So how would an H-scene in a VN fair if it was just as explicit, but only 5 minutes long, and with, at most, 2 CGs? I don’t think any company has ever attempted this sort of thing. When an H-scene happens, they usually go all out. It would be an interesting experiment, either way.
Ok so while I have not read this entire thread (I need to sleep and theres 257 comments) I just want to know, why can’t eroge just have a choice to turn off h-scenes and whatever erotic content? While I understand that many people like the h-scenes, I personally don’t and nor do a lot of us. I played a bit Katawa Shoujo and they had an option that basically removed the h-scenes. And even if you say “the h-scene pushes the plot forward” then can they not just black it out when you don’t want to see it? Like you can still see the text so you still know what’s going on but you don’t have to actually see it. Maybe I’m sounding stupid cuz I barely know eroge but I just want to know why can’t we be given the choice?
(also if this came up in a comment I did not get to reading then just tell me and I’ll delete this post)
Because japan has this mentality of “if you know an item comes with something you dislike, then you shouldn’t buy it in the first place”. The same goes for food, where “hold the ketchup” on a cheeseburger is something that people don’t openly accept
I feel like you already do have a choice it is called holding down skip, I do it from time to time even. Plus they make console/non eroge versions. Those options seem good enough for me…Plus what pepe said, I think that applies to every type of game to an extent. If you don’t like ultra violent games don’t buy them… should Assassins Creed have a reduced blood/violence mode? no…Some games do have options like this, but it is rare…Well as eroge is coming to the west options for on or off h-scenes are being made,it is something the west wants.
Well, I feel like a lot of westerners aren’t averse to VNs because of sex scenes, but more specifically because it depicts sex scenes involving minors. At that point, it taps into the sort of pedophilia area, and that scares a lot of people. Hell, it’s even a point of contention in the law. In Australia, this kind of material is illegal to own. But you can generally get away with it because there’s no way of controlling it. If it was all characters that are clearly mature and over the age of 18, I doubt it would be as frowned upon. But I dunno; I guess Japan just doesn’t mind depicting minors having sex as much as other cultures do.
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I don’t mind H scenes. I don’t really seek them out but they are a neutral point when deciding if I want to read something. I get a little completionist on things when there are two versions and tend to go for the adult one just because I want un-edited artwork and maximum content. I would be less inclined to do this if the creator of the VN said that whatever the no ero version of the visual novel was the most canon. And I know in Japan a lot of times the all ages versions get additional scenes to make up for taking out the ero content which creates a really crazy versioning thing that makes me want to throw something.
This kind of thinking has left me at kind of a loss as to how to read Kanon and Air. It is really hard for me to think of the ero versions as the “most canon” so I kind of want to read it without the sexual content. On the other hand the completionist in me wants to see how they were originally presented to the world. I think I wish most for a way to play those games without the ero content, but once you finished a route you would unlock an optional scene or be able to do the route again with ero content - but I can very easily understand why companies would never cater to this.
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Does that logic apply to everything else? Because if that were the case, you’d have to play it without voices 
Actually, eden was pretty much like that. I had an angry discussion with a friend on twitter saying how H-scenes would have ruined the story and he had to correct me by telling me the H-scenes there were just part of some bonus chapters that unlocked after finishing the game. That was kinda humiliating…
(It’s been a while since I read this topic, so forgive me if I’m just repeating things that have already been expressed)
I’m quite neutral toward H scenes. I’m fine with them generally speaking, but my appreciation of a VN will always have very little to do with the presence of such scenes and their quality; I’ll just read them and move on in most cases (unless they’re a big part of the VN, but I don’t read nukige so shrug)
Now as to why I’m neutral about them. Simply speaking, it’s because I believe the writers themselves don’t give them much attention.
I can’t pretend to be the greatest expert in the field of visual novels, but I do feel attracted to the variety; as in, you see VNs with extremely varied settings, themes and ideas, and in fact some have extremely thought-provoking content which is absolutely held back by the presence of H scenes. And I believe that writers simply have to include H scenes in order to keep that creative freedom. While that might sound counter-intuitive, I think the freedom comes from the very fact that eroge is a niche medium, and the people who read them are fans of the medium. And generally speaking, those fans (at least a certain part of them) are tied to the medium by the biggest thing that obviously makes it stand out from others; in this case, the H content. Or rather, the H scenes are a topos; they’re what the reader, in many cases, expects to see, a constant that all eroge have. And it’s because these fans adhere to the presence of H to begin with (as in fact otaku culture being quite niche to begin with, H makes eroge doubly niche, and thus readers almost need to be at least fine with the presence of H), that creators have their freedom; since they know the fans will read their work because it’s an eroge, whether the H is besides the story’s point or not, it’s something that most creators are obliged to include, even if to a small extent, if they wish to sell their creation to their target audience.
The result of this, from my point of view, is that writers themselves hardly pour much effort into scenes that are merely present because they have to; in many cases it’s absolutely not a theme, and even then, what good would it do to start exploring a theme if it doesn’t fit into the greater story and just lasts the duration of a few H scenes? Unless we’re talking about a VN that has extensive amounts of H scenes, it would only serve to frustrate a public that observes the exploration of a theme that only ever remains shallow. I can see why a writer would just write basic, tactless H scenes and use their skills for the content that actually matters to them, since they know they’re only writing the H in order to help the game sell anyway; ultimately I don’t see why I should care about H scenes on their behalf I guess, especially when it helps create and sell works with actually great content which might simply not come to life without the presence of H.
Obviously there are exceptions to this, but the biggest ones I can think of are Key, who only moved on after gaining enough popularity, and When They Cry, which were released in a special environment (of course such an ambitious thing would stand out at Comiket). ISLAND is also all-ages, but that’s being published by Frontwing off the back of their hugely popular Grisaia series, which does have H (and not just a little at that); so ultimately, either you’re publishing your product under specific conditions which allow you to do away with the H, either you need to do like everyone and include some in order to sell. Once again I’m not an expert so what I’m saying might just be entirely wrong, who knows.
Comparisons with “real” novels are all well and good, but I don’t believe them to be that correct when the core of the matter here is choice. While novelists wouldn’t reject the opportunity to explore sexuality in their works, the novel medium is absolutely not defined by the presence of sex; it’s a far vaster medium that’s divided in genres, movements, all of which have their own topoi as I mentioned earlier. H is the topos in VNs; in novels, it can be a duel scene (19th Century French literature), the death of a main character (Greek tragedy)… but as far as I know sex scenes have never been a topos in literature, although romance is; but then it’s up to the writer if he wants to explore sexuality. There’s too vast a gulf between “real” novels and VNs to simply compare them.
So I guess at the end of the day my point of view is that I don’t see why I should be so bothered by something which is just something the writer himself didn’t care enough to do tactfully; it’s just something that has to be there in order for VNs to retain what attracts me to them, so I just can’t say I find them terrible when I can’t help but think the medium couldn’t work as it does now without them. It might as well not be there, but I can see see why it has to be there anyway, so I think it better to just move on from them.
I think that’s what I want to say. I haven’t written anything in a while, so it’s probably awfully unclear, but I think I said what I wanted to. 
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Like I said, with Key it tough. I want the voices because for me that is a part of the “most canon” experience. I get wishy washy on the H scenes with Key because they were originally there, and then removed, which usually seems for the best, so I kind of don’t care but there is a part of me that doesn’t do well with the idea of “removed” content.
If only they would make Perfect Editions for every game. It at least tells you what is most canonical (ergo, H-scenes are not in LB, whereas they are in Tomoyo After)
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Welllllll, in LB’s case, its pretty strongly implied that all the H-scenes still happen… you just dont see them.
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Honestly don’t really care either way. You can click through them if you don’t like them, or you can read them if you do.
My viewpoint is that this “if an h-scene isn’t necessary, it shouldn’t be there” opinion is kind of contrived and doesn’t have much basis in anything. Unless it’s actively undermining the narrative (as in, breaking character and things like that), then I don’t really mind. The reality is that people have sex, and it’s actually weirder that a couple would be so chaste that they just don’t have sex at all.
There’s things like marketing demographics for developers to consider, of course, but I don’t think that most VNs are developed for younger ages, and of course you’re probably aware there’s going to be h-scenes going into a VN, and can just quickly ctrl through them in most cases.
In short: I think they’re fine and don’t even necessarily have to drive some sort of theme or major plot point home.
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No, I think that that argument makes lots of sense. Sure, its something almost all people do at some point, but to explicitly show such a special act within a serious narrative, I think it would have some sort of meaning. I struggle to even think of a parallel because sex is something so unique.
I guess you could argue that, in the current society, perhaps many people don’t share the same feelings about sex that I do, that its seen as less “special”. Well, like I said, at some point I would love to discuss why such a large majority of sex portrayed in VNs is for pleasure and not with the intention of procreation (and perhaps even more mysterious, since that is the case, why contraceptives are so rarely mentioned). But even so, you would think that it would more often be an important moment/development for the two characters.
Also, I would guess that some people would probably argue that the “undermining the narrative” happens more often than maybe how you view it. Besides just acting completely out of character, including explicit sex not only sets a different mood, but also makes a statement, both of which could easily be inconsistent with the rest of the experience.
