I don’t think this is true at all. Look at anime like Now and Then, Here and There. They delve into subjects that, in a VN would be presented via a H-Scene, and everyone would be like “Oh, it’s vital to the story! If you take that scene out, you lose part of the experience.” The thing is, in most other story-telling media, they would just imply something happened.
There is a conscious choice in the VN industry to include H-Scenes. I find it hard to believe that something like F/SN or Kara no Shoujo would have suffered if the H-Scenes were replaced with a good build up that cuts straight to an aftermath - because that’s what a lot of books, movies, and TV shows do.
As I said earlier, I think there is always a way to write these things tastefully. Even by simply not implying it and stating directly that intercourse occurred, it can still be done tastefully. I’m not one who thinks that all notion of sex should be avoided, as those can be used as very good plot devices. I just think that they can always be done in a manner that would not relegate them to be considered as, well, pornography.
I would like to think of a counterexample to this, i.e., a story that would suffer in impact or emotion if explicit H-scenes were to be replaced with generally safe sex scenes. The only such examples that I can think of are abusive ones involving sadistic themes but those are no longer considered “safe” because of totally different reasons. If anybody can suggest any counterexamples, I would be glad to listen.
I think you worded my thoughts pretty well by saying that there is a conscious choice. When a VN developer releases a game with H-scenes, what is their intent? Is it to sell it as pornograpic content? Or is it to enforce a story with the said scenes? For the former, then it is what it is. For the latter, see above argument. If both factors are intended, then they would have all the incentive to put them in. Which is why I appreciate it when the companies make a conscious decision not to do so. Not all companies can do that, of course, as it has been proven to be a very risky business choice, especially in this market.
*sigh… I tried guys. I did my best to keep this topic from straying into strict opinion territory, but I guess this thread was meant to be an argument anyways… I guess the best thing to do now is just start from the beginning and go from there…
I believe H scenes are a unique thing that is widely used in many visual novels, and is generally shied away from in many other mediums. It is because of this that there are many VNs that have a unique marriage between H and plot; and this relationship does not translate well into other, more standard, ways of telling a story. To this end, I believe that H scenes should be kept in the majority of VNs, and that the community should be more accepting of the unique aspects of the medium instead of ignoring them or attempting to get them removed.
As far as what I do when they come up, I should probably point out that I have never masturbated to an H scene in any VN, nor do I ever plan to. I generally just read them and try to pay extra attention to the character/story development going on. Thought in all fairness, if the game or any of the characters participating are really THAT bad, I have been known to skip them every once in a while.
*Points to @uppfinnarn’s post:
I don’t normally use SnU for this argument, but since it seems a few other people here have actually read it, I’ll go with it. Saya no Uta quite literally could not have been done without sex scenes. If you were to take those out you would be directly removing a HUGE part of the protagonist’s motivations and, perhaps more specifically, he would have lost his humanity. Having sex with Saya is part of what keeps Fuminori sane-ish.
[quote=“Takafumi, post:5, topic:401”]
Any story that uses such content as a means of developing a character is just using a cheap distasteful method to bolster sales.
[/quote]see above.
Some stories are written in an adult pretext and are meant to have mature content in them. Calling those stories distasteful is significantly offensive. (ESPECIALLY considering that I can’t taste very well because of my sense of smell… :()
[quote=“yerian98, post:12, topic:401”]
Unfortunately, a large percentage of H-scenes are very distasteful. They’re put in awkward places, do zero to advance the plot or character relationships, and sometimes are just H-scenes for the sake of H-scenes.
[/quote]There are definitely some out there that are absolutely terrible, yes, but I don’t think it’s quite as big of a number as you might be thinking. At least in my experience, those terrible scenes are pretty rare.
[quote=“JDAM_Cid, post:17, topic:401”]
There are times when H scenes are vital to the story. A follower of mine talked about a company named Neko Neko Soft where it was the case.
[/quote]Interesting… do you know if your follower would recommend their games? I’ve heard the name before, but I don’t know much about them.
[quote=“Takafumi, post:18, topic:401”]
The thing is, in most other story-telling media, they would just imply something happened.
[/quote]This is EXACTLY why I think they should be kept in. VNs have something special here that most other mediums never even had in the first place. Is it so bad to want to keep that unique aspect about them alive?
[quote=“Pepe, post:19, topic:401”]
I would like to think of a counterexample to this, i.e., a story that would suffer in impact or emotion if explicit H-scenes were to be replaced with generally safe sex scenes. The only such examples that I can think of are abusive ones involving sadistic themes but those are no longer considered “safe” because of totally different reasons. If anybody can suggest any counterexamples, I would be glad to listen.
[/quote]Anything by Sphere. KonoSora got a lot of backlash for IMHHW removing them. Hell, I could even argue that Eushully games would suffer without the H.
This is why I tend to not use SnU in my arguments though, since people just dismiss it with “oh, well that game was effed up anyways, so it doesn’t count.”
Well in the end, it all comes down to genre. Those scenes are in Saya no Uta for the same reason they show up in Mature films. I do believe the stories could still work perfectly without those scenes, as has been proved throughout the history of media based around Mature themes. Having Mature themes however, is not an excuse to delve straight into the Porn industry. For me, it just ruins part of what could be a good story, and I do believe it is distasteful.
As I said before though, handle it how things like ‘Now and Then, Here and There’ did, without showing anything but still being blunt enough to make you think “Oh god… that happened…” and it can be a defining scene.
The word “special” isn’t necessarily positive. While Eroge was the birth of the VN scene, and is keeping it alive today, it also contributes heavily to the death of the industry. They cater towards the (somewhat dedicated) Japanese porn industry, when they could be aimed at a worldwide audience. From what I’ve heard, that is how most things are handled in Japan though. They aren’t the best at judging available audiences.
Oh, and I’m not arguing against H-Scenes in VNs like you make out. I’m not saying they should be removed; H-Scenes are to be expected by the majority of VNs. I can’t argue against a core foundation of the whole industry.
I just think they are disgusting, and that mature themes can be handled in a much more tasteful way.
Another thing that I find peculiar is, in the instance of a VN having H-Scenes that can be easily added or removed without harming the story at all- Is the developers intention not simply fan service? I can understand viewing it as an art piece in that it’s ‘just how VNs do things, no censorship, etc’- But I find it difficult to believe, with the exception of very clear story driven H-Scenes that are the authors creation, that they aren’t created with pornography in mind and to entertain a section of the fanbase.
Again, don’t take offense to this, I’m just trying to link authors purpose and H-Scenes, mainly because it’s commonly unnecessary and I believe that is where seeing it as distasteful to some is fair. Especially with how frequent and lengthy the segments can be, aside from also being interactions that are just… Hard to believe. Some scenes are uh, not your typical sexual encounter.
Yeah, I guess I made a pretty huge generalization from the very little experience I have. I often pretend that I know a ton more about stuff than I actually do.
I think part of the problem is that American film and television are infamous for having pointless romance and “obligatory sex scenes,” which contribute to the common excuse that “well, sex sells.” At least for me, I think these biased assumptions are carrying over to opinions on H in VNs, a medium that I am relatively new to.
There is also the obvious taboo around sex as extremely mature, not to be talked about, and - depending on personal opinions - even disgusting. But for some reason, depicting violence and gore is OK. This confuses me. Granted, neither are for kids, but sex is actually something most people do at some point, and unless done without mutual consent or with criminal intentions, is perfectly normal and not disgusting. Violence on the other hand is almost always criminal, always meant to cause pain, not something most people ever want to happen to them, and in reality is a traumatizing experience. Yet its perfectly fine for a young audience to witness kids running around in a fight to the death, but sex is something no one should have to or should want to see. Am I missing something or does society really just have this backward?
[quote=“Bizkitdoh, post:22, topic:401”]
Some scenes are uh, not your typical sexual encounter.
[/quote]Lets be honest, does anyone read a VN (or any work of fiction for that matter) and expect it to be completely realistic?
No, of course not. But in the realm of ‘is it art or is it fan service’ I think it’s relevant to note. Is it to move the viewer emotionally, or is it for entertainment? It seems commonly skewed to the latter in regards to how they play out, whether it be just how someone perceives it or not. The question of the authors purpose.
Again, I’m not for or against anything. Just tossing in things I question about them as I read through this, seeing as I’m definitely not fully read in every H-Scene ever made. ^^;
Lots of people say that the author’s purpose doesn’t matter, it’s the fans’ interpretation that decides what the work really means. I don’t usually share this opinion, but I think it works really well here. It really just depends on how you view sex yourself.
If you think sex is special and emotional, then your feelings on how the VN uses H-scenes will be much different from someone who thinks sex is disgusting, or for “entertainment purposes.”
Exactly~ It’s all down to how you interpret the topic. I dislike H-Scenes for the same reason I dislike a meal - the contents make me feel sick.
It doesn’t really matter what the context of the scene is, I’ll still hate it for a reason beyond simple likes and dislikes.
My opinion on H-Scenes is that they are disgusting. Would I want them to go? No, I just don’t want to see them. A lot of people (you could even say the majority) don’t find the act disgusting.
I personally like the implementation of H-Scenes for that same reason, that sex is a very valuable thing when it comes to two people being close to one another- And I’ve seen them used that way before, which I really liked. It’s a type of character development that simply can’t be met by other means without the viewer fully understanding the scenario.
A lot of people tend to glance over the fact that there’s sex saying that it’s porn or entertainment, which is quite upsetting to me as someone who’s all about appreciating what life brings or has to offer. It’s like that kind of person has become jaded over sexual relations, which is a mindset that runs rampant in today’s society. ‘What sex means’ is completely lost to them at that point. It’s supposed to be a beautiful thing.
I feel like just pointing out one thing. They’re called eroge.
Voila, it’s like watching an R movie and not wanting R rated elements in it. Especially not nude actresses. Yes, it’s not full on sex anymore in those movies, but you still tend to try and expect the stuff. Other than that… all I can continue to say is today’s society is perverted, so yes porn markets are more successful.
[quote=“Takafumi, post:21, topic:401”]
Those scenes are in Saya no Uta for the same reason they show up in Mature films. I do believe the stories could still work perfectly without those scenes, as has been proved throughout the history of media based around Mature themes. Having Mature themes however, is not an excuse to delve straight into the Porn industry. For me, it just ruins part of what could be a good story, and I do believe it is distasteful.
[/quote]I have to ask, have you read Saya no Uta? (that’s just me wondering)
Theres a specific reason I say the H scenes cannot be removed or altered. The first person aspect of SnU’s H scenes helps readers identify with an otherwise inhuman protagonist. If those same H scenes had been altered to a third person perspective, or removed entirely, I couldn’t have even considered Fuminori to be a human; and a very large part of the impact of that game comes from identifying with him. The other example I normally use is Yosuga no Sora, a VN with an anime (yes, anime, not hentai) adaptation. The H scenes were left in with the anime because the animators believed it could not have been done without them. Also, I’d like to point out that mature films are usually based off books, a medium that also does not usually include first person sex scenes; so it’s not really fair to use that comparison since the source material most likely did not include direct depictions of sex in the first place.
[quote=“Takafumi, post:21, topic:401”]
it also contributes heavily to the death of the industry.
[/quote]Where is the evidence of this? I would argue that its still helping the industry expand. Especially considering there are companies like Key to draw in the “all ages” crowd, who may or may not expand into eroge territory later on.
[quote=“Bizkitdoh, post:24, topic:401”]
‘is it art or is it fan service’
[/quote]if we remove Nukige from the picture (which I don’t think anyone disagrees are just for sexual entertainment) I think most developers have/will find a creative way to get it to lead to the former.
[quote=“yerian98, post:25, topic:401”]
Lots of people say that the author’s purpose doesn’t matter, it’s the fans’ interpretation that decides what the work really means.
[/quote]Deconstruction theory <3 This is probably my favorite school of literary criticism, and is actually the way I find myself naturally viewing things that I read. I actually almost wrote one of my English final’s on Rewrite from this perspective, but I opted to do Dark Souls instead since I felt it would fit better with the theme.
[quote=“Takafumi, post:26, topic:401”]
I dislike H-Scenes for the same reason I dislike a meal - the contents make me feel sick.
[/quote]Surely there are meals that you actually enjoy though?
This leads to a difference in core opinions though; I have been known to eat food that makes my stomach feel terrible just because I enjoy the taste. Though, as I mentioned earlier, I can’t taste very many foods, so I try to enjoy what I can actually taste, even if it makes me feel sick afterward.
[quote=“Bizkitdoh, post:27, topic:401”]
It’s supposed to be a beautiful thing.
[/quote]^this
it’s significantly more powerful when it comes from a neutral party, which is why I hadn’t said it yet, but I very much agree with this, and think that our society should be a little more accepting of such a beautiful act.
Just curious, what about it disgusts you so much? I personally feel disgusted when its stuff like rape, or cheating, or unnecessary weird fetishes, or when its just the characters pleasuring themselves and its not really love. However, these can sometimes be used as purposeful plot devices in order to deliberately make the reader feel disgusted, and I can appreciate that. But you seem to feel that way about all H-scenes. No need to go into detail if you’re uncomfortable with telling us, I’m just interested.
Would it have had the same effect if they kept the sex but remove the H-scene? You would still get the notions of him needing sex to keep his sanity when everything else is distorted, but you wouldn’t be getting the nudity or the “oohs” and “aahs” during said scene.
Would it be possible to alter them to still be from a first-person perspective, while withholding the details? I haven’t read Saya no Uta and this is a genuine question I must ask, coming from people who have read it.
I can understand KonoSora’s argument: I, personally, do not find it a necessity to the story to keep the H-scenes, but I can imagine some people would have qualms against it, especially in the Ageha route. After all, friends-with-kissing probably isn’t as a confusing relationship as friends-with-sex. Moenovel could have chosen to rewrite the sex scenes into non-H scenes, but they didn’t do that, which was a pretty drastic decision. Would they have gotten the same backlash if they kept a remnant of the scene without the H? Maybe; maybe not.
My counterargument to this is Symphonic Rain. I honestly wouldn’t have gotten the same impact if Chris hadn’t practically forced Falsita into sex, and would be quite disappointed if they removed that scene. That scene isn’t an H-scene, but a well-written sex scene.
I think we can conclude that, for many developers, adding in H-scenes is simply done to sell the game as a form of pornography. It is common in the VN industry, and, as @AngelOfDeath720 said earlier, the industry would not be able to survive without it.
The stories themselves could have been made simply because a developer told them to make a story that could have sex scenes. Or if a story was first conceived, then told later on “it has to have sex.” In those cases, they could seemingly be removed without having any impact.
There are rare cases where a writer would create a story where he intends to keep sex as a major part of storytelling, and perhaps their intent is more than just selling it as pornography. I would consider it art, but I will still look at it as pornographic art. Should it be written in a way that removes the H, I will no longer consider it pornographic.
Adding in to that example is the anime adaptation of White Album 2. They kept the sex scene, and did it so beautifully while removing the H contents. It’s that sort of treatment that I would expect to see if I want to no longer consider something as pornographic.
Agreed. Sex is a beautiful thing, but it is also a very private and emotional act between couples. What reason do we outsiders have to know the nitty-gritty details of this act, if not for our own satisfaction? What I am trying to say is that there is a point in which sex becomes pornography when enough details are made known.
To summarize how I feel, when a VN has explicit H scenes (not simple sex scenes but nudity with details on the act itself), then I will consider it pornography. If a VN has a sex scene, with no H, then I won’t consider it pornography. Pornography can be art, it can be part of a story, or simply be there to appease those looking for it, but it still remains porn, and when a VN contains it, that is how I will view it: as a form of pornography.
This is slightly off-topic now, but I think the reason why people are so defensive about pornography, saying it is art or whatnot, is because society has shamed people into viewing it as something unethical. They try to justify pornography as ethical because it is art. I don’t believe this, because I do not see pornography as unethical. As such, I do not feel the need to label it as something else to justify it as ethical; because it already is.
Part of what makes VNs special as a medium is that, as they are almost always told from 1st person POV, the reader is able to become the main character. You are supposed to feel what they feel, know what they know, and maybe most importantly, see as they see. If you think of the VN as a game or a novel, then yeah it is pornography. But if you think of it as an experience, then it becomes more involving, more real (maybe?). Of course this is only applicable when the H-scenes are done “tastefully.”
This also goes back to how the sex is presented and how you as a reader choose to see/interpret it.
The West have been doing well the job of demonizing sex as something worse than, as @yerian98 said, violence. Such demonizing reached Japan through stuff that happened in late 19th century and then we see black bars and mosaics in adult material there ¬.¬
Well, it’s not intrinsicaly ethical. It depends on the existance of consensus between the parts. Without such consensus, it’s not better than rape or other sex crimes. Think of the guys who upload their vids having sex with their ex gfs to the net…
I honestly think that it is impossible to really feel what a character feels because we do not share their experiences. We cannot do this because our feelings are reactions to certain events, and our reactions are shaped by our past experiences. What I do think we feel when we read VNs in first-person is empathy. We empathize with the character because of the way the story is written. That being said, I don’t think we need the nitty-gritty details of intercourse in order to empathize with the emotions the character feels when it happens.
That is just my opinion, though. I must admit, that is an insight that I neglected to take into account, and I thank you for that.
Ah, yes, touché. That becomes unethical, not because of the content, but because it is a breach of privacy between two people.
I see a lot of jokes, hate and… God knows what else in reference to that thing- But I am fascinated at how uncomfortable it made me feel and actually praise it for that. Speaking from the anime here, however, but the VN is equally demented. That would definitely be an example in which the sex was very much so a representation of high school love disaster. Granted, of course, the anime didn’t have graphic sexual scenes, but had… Some other things. The VN had both. I actually think that was more of a ‘making it more acceptable for television’ move. It’s an interesting work to look at here, though. Maybe.
I read it a few years ago~ Didn’t like it (very slow and boring) but this isn’t a review thread~ I think it’s perfectly capable for a character to be humanized without showing him sleep with what looks like a little girl. H-Scenes aren’t irreplaceable, especially for Saya no Uta where the meaning of the H-Scenes content is so generic. For Saya no Uta, it’s all about the context. We don’t need to see that stuff happening to know that it is happening. We’re in the head of the protagonist - that’s a waaaay more powerful tool than H-Scenes.
I don’t know why you are talking about 3rd person though - that would obviously ruin it. The main gimmick of the VN is how the MC sees the world.
Give out a free copy of a VN. How many people are going to think “ah, I’ll just leave it” when they hear it has H-scenes in it? The obvious answer is a lot. Sure, once you break into the Visual Novel scene you begin to understand, but taking the first step is always hard, especially when there is questionable content within.
The people who read VNs are a very niche group, and it is dying out. Go look at the VN sales charts. The best way of them dealing with this, is to localize some good all-age VNs for people to read, and then once people are used to the genre, start with the 18+ VNs. To a lot of people out there, VNs are just a gimmick with some adult content added in for “Oh Japan!” moments.
They shouldn’t have to find a way. “Okay, here’s some fan-service. Now how can we justify it being there?”
Oh god no, food is yuck. I’m extremely malnourished. Eat only when necessary!
And yeah, it’s a difference in core opinions. This is the “Opinions and discussion” thread
It’s just a natural reaction I guess? The whole idea of it just makes me gag ^^;
It’s like when you meet someone and dislike them for no reason other than not liking them. There isn’t really an explanation, it’s just… how things are~
While I don’t like the idea of all the H stuff, I can appreciate it when they handle something so delicately. It’s about the emotions and thoughts the characters have during the scene that matters - not the act.
No, it would not have had the same effect. Especially considering that some extremely graphic stuff happens in SnU’s H scenes, and part of the effect is how graphic it is at times.
[quote=“Pepe, post:31, topic:401”]
There are rare cases where a writer would create a story where he intends to keep sex as a major part of storytelling, and perhaps their intent is more than just selling it as pornography.
[/quote]I don’t consider it rare at all. Most of the VNs I have read that came out in the past 2-3 years have integrated it very well within their story, which is something that did not seem to be as common in older VNs. I’d rather not get into the argument of new vs. old though, because most people are not fortunate enough to play VNs as they are released…
[quote=“Pepe, post:34, topic:401”]
I honestly think that it is impossible to really feel what a character feels because we do not share their experiences. We cannot do this because our feelings are reactions to certain events, and our reactions are shaped by our past experiences.
[/quote]This is one of the more… dangerous? forms of Deconstruction Theory. Nothing against using it really, but it seems most Deconstructionalists try to avoid this thought process. It is a very valid point though, so I would love to see more discussion on this topic, but I’m not sure this thread is the right place to discuss it in more detail.
[quote=“Takafumi, post:36, topic:401”]
I don’t know why you are talking about 3rd person though - that would obviously ruin it.
[/quote]The examples where they talk about the sex without directly showing it have moved the topic into a 3rd person perspective. That’s why I brought it up.
[quote=“Takafumi, post:36, topic:401”]
Sure, once you break into the Visual Novel scene you begin to understand, but taking the first step is always hard, especially when there is questionable content within.
[/quote]Not really on the topic of H scenes, but this is also why I believe companies like Key are essential to the VN market. They’re in a unique place from which they can draw in potential consumers and introduce them to the medium in a more comfortable environment.
[quote=“Takafumi, post:36, topic:401”]
The best way of them dealing with this, is to localize some good all-age VNs for people to read, and then once people are used to the genre, start with the 18+ VNs.
[/quote]I wouldn’t call it the “best” but this is one path they could take IF, and that’s a big if, they wanted to include foreign consumers into the market.
[quote=“Takafumi, post:36, topic:401”]
They shouldn’t have to find a way. “Okay, here’s some fan-service. Now how can we justify it being there?”
[/quote]Do you play video games? While I don’t think they do the best job of it, that’s an example of developers having to find a creative way to keep people interested in their product. Look at the Call of Duty franchise. They sell basically the same game every year, but they keep their consumers interested with unique tidbits to every game. Maybe its having really fun to use killstreaks or maybe its Nazi Zombies, the fact remains that creativity is needed in order to keep any market alive.
As far as the “make the fanservice fit in” argument; as I said earlier, this problem seems to be a lot less prominent(or at least less visible) in newer VNs.
