I guess that goes back to the discussion about whether pornography, explicit sex, nudity, etc. is inherently bad, or whether thats just what society and religion or whatever else that has formed our beliefs, has taught us. And really, I dont want to get into that discussion, at least not here.
I kinda see H-scenes as a completely different beast from other discussions of sexual depictions though. Obviously I’m not going to go into my opinions on mainstream pornography here, but talking about things like regular sex scenes in fiction it’s hard not to see a difference. I can’t exactly name a dozen off my head but there’s definitely plenty of them that aren’t just gratuitous nudity and do serve a purpose within story context. And even in those that aren’t, VNs are separated by the fact that you’re very unlikely to see a sex scene so explicit in 99% of any other fiction.
That’s the part where you wouldnt necessarily understand, because none of Key’s H-scenes, as you say, serve a purpose within story context.
But that really has been the main argument of this topic: whether there are H-scenes that are necessary/relevant/serve a purpose besides porn. Some people say absolutely. Some people say absolutely not. We havent really come to any kinda of middle ground kind of agreement on that one.
However, a large percentage of people here do agree that, as you pointed out, most if not all of the H-scenes that were necessary/etc. did not require being so explicit to convey the same point and themes.
You guys are all approaching this the wrong way, methinks.
Like I’ve said before, I don’t see H-scenes as anything more than porn (aside exceptions mentioned earlier). But I have also mentioned that I do not see anything unethical or immoral with pornography.
It seems to me, from the way some people are responding on this thread, is that a “good” h-scene constitutes it being something less “porn”-y and more story.
But I think that defeats the entire purpose! That’s like saying a good cake is dependent on how salty it tastes. If you go stop trying to force it into the story, and view it for what it is, then you can judge its merits on criteria appropriate for what it is.
tl;dr what I am saying is judge the quality of h-scenes based on how good the porn is 
This may sound very silly, but if you remove the pre-notions that pornography is unethical, it makes sense. There are so many ways to do this. Is it written in a way that can successfully excite the reader, or is it just plain smut? Are the sexual interactions placed in a normal way, going from light to heavy foreplay, before intercourse? And if they aren’t, is there an exciting reason for doing so?
The whole point of porn is to excite the readers sexually, and if we stop forcing H-scenes to become part of the story and start viewing it as porn, I feel you can really view it in a different light.
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My problem with H-scenes is that the porn exists .-. That doesn’t mean some aren’t worse than others though. There’s still judgement of quality to be had, even ignoring the porn aspect.
I try not to stare at lights too much. It can blind you o.o
I do think this is a distinction that a lot of people fail to see, although I don’t think those people are on Kazamatsuri
These are the people who complain when a VN gets an all ages version… Complaining over the removal of nothing. If you want porn, then just say so. Don’t act like the integrity of a VN has been violated by the decision to make it less explicit.
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VNs are a form of storytelling, so I expect story. H-scenes are a waste of time and they just get in the way. It’s not story, it’s porn, and I don’t believe it has any business being there outside of boosting sales.
Personally, I think it would be pretty interesting to discuss them this way, but there are several problems with that:
- The number of people who have expressed their hatred for H-scenes, are… numerous, so there probably wouldnt be too many of us talking here.
- Aspi would probably get pissed at us and shut us down. He did it before in the manga topic when we started talking H-manga:
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No, the people who complain about a VN getting an all ages version are the ones who constantly push about the “H-scenes being important to the story” bit which I just despise XP
But yeah, no need to discuss it any further, as @Yerian said. Just thought I’d give some additional perspective to this topic before it becomes a circlejerk
What I’m gunning for is more a separation of the two things. There’s plenty of eroge that pride themselves on being pretty much straight up porn. I don’t believe a sex scene in anything is necessarily morally reprehensible - I just think, given Key’s record, we can all agree that they’re not necessary. And in Key’s case, I do believe it cheapens the novel. Like I said, coming from a Key-only perspective I certainly have a different outlook on this than others.
When people want pornography, there’s more suitable ways to obtain it than 10 hours into a melodramatic supernatural romance story. I’ll always hope Key moves completely away from H-scenes, as unlikely as it is - there’s plenty of other eroge out there for their respective fans.
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I don’t like it if they were actually useful to character development. Even if they’re not I hate censorship of an author’s original intention so it’s hard for someone who doesn’t care for them to really fight either way (especially with games like Grisaia and G-Senjou releasing on Steam now in their all-ages form).
Kinda. You do have something here, I debated typing up something similar before. But like… I think limitting H scenes only to be judged /as/ porn as being rather… bland? Classical art, film, fashion don’t have this issue of having to be separated or solely judged as porn. Rather they can blend sexuality into their works. I don’t think you have to judge H scenes solely as ‘porn’, unless your standards for judging porn are comparable to your usual critiquing habits.
Like I’ve said before, Kanashimi no Belladonna, Yuri Kuma Arashi, and Lupin the III: The Woman Called Fujiko Mine are all great examples of completely sexual shows. To separate their sexual elements out as being ‘porn’ would be reductionist. Even if you are doing it to compliment the show, you’d be missing something fundamental. There is no reason why shizz like this isn’t in visual novels. In all likelihood stuff like this does exist. (Though I have yet to really see it.)
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Let’s see. I didn’t read everything that was said before (since it would take a while), but my opinion is this:
I don’t think H-scenes are necessary, but I do think that they can satisfy some people. As such, I have nothing against them, but I think they should make them optional and, by default, put it on Non-H and require a code or something to activate the scenes.
Here’s why:
I think what keeps the VN market from flourishing more is the fact that they are mostly directed towards adults. In all honesty, the first VN I played was one with H-scenes and it was why I played it. However, it still was closer to curiosity than interest. As such, there are plenty of VN that doesn’t feel right with H-scenes. While playing VNs, I came across very few that actually gave the choice of activating H-scenes and they were usually enabled by default. These occurrences were Ef - A Tale of the Two and Kamodori Alchemy Meister (if you consider it a VN). Ef did an exceptional work for many things, including the forced choice of enabling or disabling with no default option.
However, I think that, if the H-scenes were locked by a password of some sort, some VNs could certainly be offered to read to 10+ y.o. people. Granted, some are still too complicated for young people, but I read Rewrite at 12 year old and I had no problem with it, yet I am not even a native English speaker.
So, I think that, the best way to go is not directly in the VNs themselves, but more in the market.
On another note, I am the kind of person who is only attracted to H-scenes containing characters that I have some sort of connection with. In Rewrite, that would either be Akane or Kagari, Shizuru being one that feels too precious anyway. I was excited, but also disappointed when I learned that Eri Kitamura was doing the voice acting for Akane… After all, Eri Kitamura never does H-scenes, but she’s awesome… Kana Hanazawa is also awesome.
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DTIPBIJAYS kinda did this. It was all about lack of privacy, but there was a single moment where you needed to get a password to view a H-CG. I never found the password in my playthrough though. It might just be a cosmetic thing. Interesting idea though.
You mean All Age versions? They’re effectively the same thing. More or less. And again, I feel this is fine for some VNs. But their definitely exists works which /need/ their sexual scenes. I’m speaking universally here, not just about VNs.
The problem with this and other things like it that people have suggested in the past is: Its a lot of extra work for a market that 1) Lots of VNs arent aimed at anyways, and 2) Has yet to prove that it would even be profitable for most companies.
Well, first of all, as someone who’s been programming for six years, it’s not really hard work. Just add a paper with the code on it and have the code universal. It’s just to safeguard the option, to unlock it. If it’s a kid, he/she will probably won’t bother searching the Internet.
[quote=“Yerian, post:206, topic:401”]
- Lots of VNs arent aimed at anyways
[/quote]I think that’s where lies the whole problem though. Some VN are just complete shit: they’re only there for the H-scenes. Those, we don’t care. Honestly though, I sometimes feel like going for H after watching an awesome series. Take Rewrite for example: when I got done with it, I had this urge of searching for doujins (not sure how honest I should be on here lol) and back then, there was none to be found. I think that’s where they come in.
[quote=“Yerian, post:206, topic:401”]
2) Has yet to prove that it would even be profitable for most companies.
[/quote]Unfortunately, that’s where VNs lose their reputations. Companies, in Visual Novel making, seem to be aiming for the H in the first place. That’s what make my idea useless: there’s seldom a VN that actually exist for the story. I personally can’t handle VNs that have, as their only purpose, a bunch of H-scenes with no decent story or whatsoever. Rewrite has been my favourite VN and it has none, my second favourite being Ef (which have it as an option). In other words, I think the problem lies not in the H-scenes, but in the market and the economy itself. I think there is a great potential there. There is much more money to be made out of this and all that need to be fixed up is the reputation. That’s why I think my idea is good. If the idea could be adapted into a law, VNs could be used as stories, as books, as medias, etc. What makes them so good and so special is the dynamism that books lack. I think children would profit from that. All these kids in high school that doesn’t read their books because “they’re boring”.
Anyway, I know my opinion is grand and that’s always what I do, but I think there’s much to be done. We need to evaluate WHAT exactly a VN should be and are we fine to define it as hentai? Everybody I have recommended Rewrite all answered me the same thing: “Another one of those hentai thingy”, yet there’s none.
Well, I’m getting off-topic, so I’ll end it here.
Everything Typemoon, everything Key, everything Seventh Expansion, almost every VN that has had an anime adaptation that wasn’t just literally porn. Some of those VNs that had anime adaptations which were literally porn. Saya no Uta even though it is full of sex scenes.
I could probably give an argument whereby story includes many porn focussed VNs as is. I believe a relatively common thought is most popular VNs are really really really bad porn. Not to mention the Author is dead yadada yadada the intentions of the creators don’t matter.
This is just wrong though. Yes, some VNs can and possibly should have all ages versions. But I’ve said it before multiple times and will continue to: Shying away from sex is harmful and wrong. Some pieces of media can and do benefit tremendously from having blatant and explicit sex in their works. And no I’m not speaking from a profit stand point, I’m speaking critically.
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https://vndb.org/g235
I’m not sure where the count is but vndb has a ton of VNs with “no sexual content” as a tag. There’s a lot of console VNs like Phoenix Wright or Zero Escape that have none, those adapted from anime/manga like Nisekoi: Yomeiri!? with none, even just PC releases like Key’s modern stuff, anything Sekai Project’s currently released aside from Grisaia, Nekopara and their western/non VN titles (I guess you could argue the Sakura games too).
These clearly exist for story and even if they didn’t, why must companies that focus on nukige and ergoe have to include all-ages? I generally don’t like hentai so if there’s a VN that’s purely nukige I’m probably going to find no enjoyment and not read it. Even eroge if they aren’t tame enough like G-Senjou I’ll either skip or FF. Clearly they sell. Yes it would be nice to have an option for people like you or me but I don’t like the idea of forcing a company to do something unless you’re trying to stop someone from getting hurt. No one is getting hurt from legal adults reading eroge and getting off to anime girls then having a perfectly healthy relationship with a real person.
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Shying away from sex you say… You do know that “sex” in VNs isn’t just “sex”, right? There is rape, there is all sorts of incest, there is sex in public places, there is child abuse, there is bestiality…
Sure, shying away from those things is terribly terribly bad.
Shying away from friendship you say… You do know that “friendship” in VNs isn’t just “friendship”, right? There is rape, there is all sorts of abuse, there is murder in public places, there is child abuse, there is drugging someone, raping them, and then burying them alive to prove a point…
Sure, shying away from those things is terribly terribly bad.
In a less sarcastic manner: What you’re saying is proving my point. Media has a problem with sex. These issues with depictions in sex aren’t unique to VNs. Shying away from sex is actually one of the things that makes this shit happen. Good portrayals of sexuality are hella freaking important. Making that impossible is the worst possible thing to do, since then peeps confusions, hurt, and worries about sexuality just… stays the same, or gets worse.
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If we only look at VNs that were translated into English, there are hundreds that are story-focused. In Japanese, there would be more than I can read in a lifetime.
The large majority of the market may be nukige, but that’s because there’s a ridiculous number of them.
Unfortunately the VN industry isn’t one that can freely experiment. It’s an expensive and crowded market. Even now, not including H-scenes is seen as a risky decision. Localization is an even crazier thought.
The VN market has survived by being highly-populated, uncensored, and sheltered from the rest of the world.
Can confirm. Pretty sure I’ve read more VNs than books since I was 11. Books suck.
Context and judgement are things.
Damn… Poor @Pepe.
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