Currently Airing Anime

Off-Topic
#61

Why is it such a common thing among people that unlikeable characters = bad story. That’s one train of thought that I can’t seem to relate to, and yet so many people use it. For example, I dislike nearly all the characters in Sakurasou except Nanami, but I think it is a good story. Not saying that it’s the wrong way to judge a story, but simply that I cannot relate to that metric. And hey, from what I read, closing chapter will make you hate them even more! YAY!

Actually. I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that stories that make the readers dislike characters are the ones that I find more to my liking. Such as in Symphonic Rain. One of the reasons it is my personal favorite was exactly because it showed the ethical imperfections of nearly every character

I must remind you again, I am biased :wink:

#62

It’s not as simple as you make it look. There are several different ways for a character to be unlikeable.
Let’s compare two different characters in a very similar position who started off in a love triangle setting.

In WA2, there’s Haruki, who becomes a pathetic lump of LAME, losing all of his positive traits in a flash for no good reason, just derping his way through people’s feelings like a clumsy fat bull in a china shop. He feels guilty as heck but he goes ahead anyway because “B-But muh true love. I have- I have to…” Who is this awkward horndog and where the heck did the previous Haruki go? He used to handle pretty much anything so well.
It’s the kind of character that makes me think “dude’s totally worthless.” If I saw him on the street, begging, I wouldn’t give him a single penny. I’d just walk by and forget him within 2 seconds. He just doesn’t matter.
I wouldn’t talk about him so much if it wasn’t for the amazing person he used to be, as well as the wasted potential of the show..

And then there’s the protag of the School Days anime, Makoto. This dude is DESIGNED to be hated. If you don’t hate him by the end of the show, you just failed to understand it. This bull will walk pridefully into a china shop and make a beeline for the most priced porcelain vase in there, which would be the first thing he’d knock over. After demolishing the rest of the shop, he’d eat all the money in the register and take a dump on the counter.
I hated this scumbag with every fiber of my being which is what made the show so damn good. I’ve never hated a fictional character so much. That seething hatred was one heck of a powerful emotion. This is a very different kind of “unlikeable”. Your negative feelings bind you to the character instead of creating more distance to him. If you were to run into him on the street, you’d want to beat the hell out of him.

To draw a simple metaphor, it’s like the difference between a pile of poop and a thumbtack that you step on bare-footed respectively.
You don’t really hate the poop. You just try to wipe it from your foot as fast as possible and then you don’t want to have to do anything with it.
With the thumbtack, it’s different. First of all, it hurts. It leaves a nasty injury. You get mad and try to take your anger out on it by crushing it with a hammer or something.

And hey, Symphonic Rain was great. Some people did some bad things but I didn’t actually dislike them for that, except maybe one dude. Fal is dedicated and more honest than she gives herself credit for, Asino is a good guy and Torta just ended up in a really bad position. The only guy worthy of some hatred would be Lise’s dad, and even then you can tell he’s just broken and bitter. So he’s actually half-hateworthy and half pitiful.

General Anime Discussion
#63

The analogy I can think of in that in the real world is comparing a guy who you know is an asshole, and is open about it, and everyone hates him for it; to a guy who seems to be decent but is selfish, and I think that is a more common thing in humanity. With this I am reminded of male-female courting relationships. We’ve all heard the story of the girl who keeps going for assholes and gets her heart broken. And then we hear of the “nice guys” who keep complaining that girls never pay attention to them and go for the jackasses. The problem is, those nice guys have ulterior motives that aren’t quite nice. I think that the women they try to court, upon realizing this, feel more of a sense of disgust, as opposed to hatred for the jackasses who broke their hearts.

What I’m trying to say is I get your point, both are forms of dislike, and both have a different reaction (such as the poop vs thumbtack analogy). But I still don’t get why it being the former type of dislike is tantamount to it being a bad story.

This question struck me pretty heavily. My answer is that this awkward horndog is the rest of humanity. The humanity that is generally decent and can achieve great things but is ultimately selfish and indecisive.
That’s how I see it, at least.
It’s extremely amusing how all the things you point out as terrible in that story are what I find makes it all the more beautiful.

1 Like
#64

You criticize shows for being unrealistic, and then you dislike one of the most realistic shows in a long time. =3=

The show built up three characters enough that we could make an opinion of them as people. It then proceeded to rip all of that away by putting the characters in a conflicting position with one another. It’s a simple plot device that was pulled off remarkably well. The protagonist judges his situation, and acts according to this. The most obvious thing to do when romance threatens a relationship is to accept that romance; that’s like… the biggest thing that goes through the average mind in this situation - try to keep everyone happy for as long as possible. Haruki had no idea that one corner of the triangle even existed, and so, knowing what he knew, he acted accordingly. He could only do so much.
Meanwhile, one character secretly has feelings for him, and the other character knows this and tries to get her feelings noticed first. The reason WA2 is praised so much is because it wasn’t just the male MC’s actions that controlled the triangle. The actions of the two girls involved moved the story forward substantially. They fight, or talk things over, and have shown understanding for each other. They’re characters that, instead of trying to get the MC’s attention, meet up and talk about their friendship.
Haruki stuck to his original feelings throughout all of it, and the character he was partnered with knew this would mostly likely be how it ended. The fact that Haruki was able to push aside all of the nonsense that comes from being in such a situation and make a decisive commitment to one of the characters is admirable. However the Protagonist of WA2 was not the main focus. He was just a third of the main cast. All three of the characters were as important as each other. They were all good friends, and they were equals. They all deceived each other to create such a situation, and they all tried to find the easy way out.
That airport scene was beautifully crafted. The culmination of every characters actions throughout everything. The characters got closer, and also fell apart. They were all torn apart, but all gained something from it. It was a great scene.

People don’t act the same way in every single situation that gets handed to them, and they are limited by what they know, unlike an audience that sees everything.

All the complaints you have are the things that make it good. Maybe the genre just isn’t for you? Or maybe you just don’t relate enough. Are you sure you aren’t just annoyed that your ship didn’t set sail? :stuck_out_tongue:

#65

This is a metaphor for WA2 for me:
In a cooking show, the cook bakes a very tasty-looking pie, then drops it on the floor and steps on it.

Is that supposed to be art or something? o.O
Before the pie got dropped, I thought to myself “That looks yummy. I’d love to eat that pie!” But now it’s just splattered and gross and dirty. I wouldn’t eat it even if I could.
I’m not into modern art, so I refuse to see any kind of beauty in the pointless destruction of a perfectly good product. It’s not beautiful to me, just unpleasant.

“The opposite of love is not hate, it’s indifference.”
Remember this well. It’s an important principle, especially when discussing fictional works.
WA2 revolves around the emotions, relationships and interactions of its 3 main characters. To put it simply, the characters are everything. In order to get into the whole thing, you need to be emotionally attached to the characters to a certain degree (no matter if it’s love or hate or both).
So when the characters became unlikeable, I stopped caring about them. I became indifferent. Needless to say, I couldn’t relate to them anymore. So due to the central role of the characters, everything about WA2 became unpleasant.
Which is why

this is the case for me.
And then it got even worse due to how it all ‘ended’.

[quote=“Takafumi, post:64, topic:28”]
Maybe the genre just isn’t for you? Or maybe you just don’t relate enough.[/quote]

So it’s kind of both. I couldn’t feel for the characters when they became pathetic. I don’t like to watch things getting deliberately wasted. I don’t like to watch stories about just how imperfect people are. It seems pointless to me.

Well, that makes a lot of sense. However, if you find that beautiful, then I’m afraid we’ll never see eye to eye in that regard. Because I don’t see the point on making a show based on that.
I know that humans suck. I don’t need a fictional story to tell me that. I can watch people suck all the time by watching the news, looking out of the window or leaving my house for a bit. That’s not what I watch fiction for.

[quote=“Takafumi, post:64, topic:28”]
You criticize shows for being unrealistic, and then you dislike one of the most realistic shows in a long time. =3=[/quote]

You just missed my whole point, since it has nothing to do with how realistic the show is.
And I don’t see how the characters have ‘gained’ anything from it. I mean, they could have, but they decided not to, right at the end.

#66

Ironically, I would actually find the pie-dropping show more entertaining than the cooking itself xP

I can accept that. My original question, though, was you don’t seem to be the only person who feels this way. I’ve seen numerous reviewers stating their dislike of a show being mainly hooked on their dislike of one, if not all of the characters. That’s something that I simply cannot understand.
I guess the most that I can get is that their dislike of said character gives them a strong emotional response which nullifies any enjoyment that could be otherwise derived from the story.

My argument against that is that we won’t get a peek into their emotions or thoughts by watching the news, or even talking to other people. The reason why I watch this sort of fiction is so that I may know what they are thinking and what they are feeling as it is happening. But yes, I guess we can agree to disagree on this one.

Actually that’s another thing. Why is it that people consider it a plus point for a story to have characters that the audience can relate to? Not that I don’t appreciate it as there have been times where I have been able to relate to one character and I quite enjoyed that; but I don’t feel that it is something that should affect one’s judgment of the quality of a story. Maybe it’s because I believe that “relating” to a character is a more personal and, therefore, unstable thing and, as such, is not a fair basis for rating?

Eh knee weigh~~~~~ I think we have digressed a bit from the topic at hand :stuck_out_tongue: Is this discussion worthy of its own topic? What do you think @Aspirety @Bizkitdoh?

#67

Relation doesn’t need to been seen as something so deep. Understanding why the character acted in a certain way, or what a specific feeling is like, is ‘enough’ to me~

1 Like
#68

If you are referring to “relating to characters/stories and etc.”, Taka and I already had that discussion in Discussion: Is There Real Meaning in Visual Novels?; basically, I said a bunch of stuff, not really being experienced enough to know what I was talking about; Taka taught me some stuff; your welcome to go post your opinions there (even though it doesn’t exactly fit that topic either)

If you are referring to depressing shows/characters (I think that’s kinda what you were talking about? Idk, I didnt read the spoilers bc I havent seen WA2), OR are referring to dislikable characters making/not making a show better/worse, I’m all in for a new topic

#69

They don’t even just randomly get stronger. They’re at the same strength they’ll always be and they’re making fun of it at this point. Seriously, catch up if you haven’t. It’s hilarious.

#70

Okay, after finding out Goose House were involved with it, I’ve picked up KimiUso. I can see the train wreck from a mile away.

Good things: Goose House, nice cast, music-oriented story, cute animation (the art style will take some getting used to though.)
Bad things: It’s gonna be painful, the directing is a bit iffy in some places (I’ll blame that on the writer of the source material for now) and they are really milking the OP for all it’s got. Oh, and the logistics of Kousei’s phone! In one scene the music he’s listening to is paused, only for it to reset to the beginning upon being played again! Some seconds later, the music is paused and then played again, and it continued from where it was paused!

#71

NOPE.
I’m not having that.

#72

Denying something doesn’t make it any less real. The show is great overall, but the way it was directed makes it seem like they wanted to simplify everything to make it more accessible to people. Some like that decision, others don’t. It doesn’t stop me enjoying the show, but it’s the biggest (and probably only) criticism I have with the show so far.

#73

H̶o̶w̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶a̶ ̶b̶a̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶?̶

H̶O̶W̶ ̶I̶S̶ ̶T̶H̶A̶T̶ ̶A̶ ̶B̶A̶D̶ ̶T̶H̶I̶N̶G̶?̶?̶?̶

Joking aside, I don’t quite get your qualms with direction as I am not sure if the directing is what made it seem simplified. I am thinking that is the nature of the story, but then again, I haven’t read the manga so I don’t know

#74

Little things like speech explaining every little detail of a character’s perception when the animation department have shown that change and more, or slightly awkward camera timings. These aren’t really big problems, but they annoy me a little, and I’ve never really seen them show up in anime recently. I had only seen 3 or 4 episodes when I typed that up though (I thought I mentioned what episode I was on at the time… but that must have been on Twitter instead) and either the direction has smoothened out, or I’ve just got used to KimiUso’s style.

#75

Ok, there’s something about Psycho-Pass 2 that’s been bothering me for a while now. It kind of lacks Urobuchi. I’m getting the feeling that there’s just somebody trying to copy his style rather than the real thing working on the anime. Like those other anime that just borrowed his name to get some hype.

I mean, it’s still very disturbing and brutal, even more so than the first season, but the rest is missing. I don’t see ideals being put on a harsh trial. I don’t see… anything deep that would make you think about it for a while. It’s lacking essence.
They’ve merely introced a new, very powerful enemy (Or should I say overpowered? It’s like whatever he wants to happen just happens. We’ve never even seen him doing work). That enemy is just exploiting flaws in ‘the system’ that have already been revealed and explained in Season 1. I realize that this season is about the question of whether or not the Sibyl system will continue to exist, which was kind of the ‘challenge’ presented at the end of Season 1. But there’s nothing really new here, just a different guy taking a shot at bringing down the same giant. And Akane isn’t even advancing with her own goal.

It feels really lacking in everything except brutality compared to Season 1.

1 Like
#76

Of course it does. The writer, composer and animation studio were all changed, so it’d be surprising if they managed to keep it the same as Season 1.

Almost all of the anime he has worked on then?

#77

Just watched the first episode, and I can already tell its not gonna be as good as Season 1, if any good at all. The script is mediocre, almost cheesy, and certainly not Urobutchi. There was absolutely nothing new in the first episode that we didn’t see last season, making it almost boring. All the characters seem flat, even the returning ones who we already know aren’t supposed to be flat. And the animation quality clearly dropped. At least the OP and ED were decent, though, again, not as great as Season 1.

And this is all just from the first episode… sigh, maybe it will get better?

I think he was probably specifically referring to stuff like Aldnoah Zero, which Urobuchi has nothing to do with after the first episode, yet still has his name attached to it.

#78

Hmm. I just binged all 9 episodes last night, and I can say I’m thoroughly enjoying it. Not to say your criticisms aren’t valid, but I don’t think they’re affecting my enjoyment as much.

I think, what I’m more interested in in this season is the political aspect. It’s less about philosophy and ideals, but more about the war. It’s like saying, season 1 introduced all the pieces on the chessboard, and season 2 has really started playing with them. Being aware of the sibyl system adds a how new dimension to the story. It’s no longer a huge revelation, but rather a very central player in the story. We get to see all the different parties make their moves and react to one another. I’m very eager to see how it all ends.

Probably with Kogami appearing at the very end in some awesome twist.

#79

Inou-Battle wa Nichijou-kei no Naka de just finished. Definitely recommended. Trigger’s animation was shit as usual, but their use of tropes in a unique way made it humorous and enjoyable. The only disappointing thing is that the Fairy War and F were treated as subplot and seem to simply have been meant to be ironic, when I really wanted to see more of that stuff.

#80

The journey was fantastic, but I hate how they left everything open to get people to read the Light Novels. It felt like it was really going in interesting, very meta places, but got cut off early due to 13 episodes. I don’t wanna have to read the light novels, heh.

“If you die in this war, you actually…”

This quote seems like the biggest unanswered question right now. A bit tease for us to read the light novels, I guess.