AIR - AIR Arc Discussion

[Bowiie]

From the beginning of the route we get to see things from the point of view of Sora, a crow. Here’s something interesting: In Japanese Shintoism, the crow is a messenger of the gods. (That link also holds a lot of other interesting symbolism for crows across various cultures.) The translation made effort to point out that Sora means “sky” as well. There are other meanings (like “void”) but I don’t think they’re too significant here. Worth noting though.

There is a lot of interesting symbolism involved with crows and why Yukito became one. I’ve got a point about this for the podcast that someone hopefully will bring up for me if I’m not there. (Look another teaser!)

[quote=“NotKyon, post:19, topic:1173”]
Potato makes an appearance! Apparently he’s the monster of the garden. (I think. Maybe.)
[/quote]When I hit this scene that was my first thought “We were right the monster was Potato!” I think we talked about that in the podcast.

[quote=“NotKyon, post:19, topic:1173”]
Does that mean that a fragment of Kanna’s soul got stuck in Misuzu, as opposed to Misuzu being a partial reincarnation of Kanna?
[/quote]I don’t feel like those are mutually exclusive. I think she would have been reincarnated partially because she “inherited” a fragment of her soul.

[quote=“NotKyon, post:19, topic:1173”]
Sora able to stay with her because he’s not human? Or is it merely because he’s unable to truly become her friend incidentally?
[/quote]Doesn’t Haruko mention a couple of times that Misuzu would always make friends with the animals? Perhaps its because they are animals and are unable to reciprocate that friendship. Sora never really feels like he see Misuzu as a friend more like he just feels an attachment to her.

[quote=“NotKyon, post:19, topic:1173”]
This reminds me a lot of…
[/quote]The sheer amount of stuff in AIR that relates to future works is amazing to me.

[NotKyon]

Look another teaser!

So many teasers! Jeez, making me look forward to the podcast and stuff. xP

Doesn’t Haruko mention a couple of times that Misuzu would always make friends with the animals? Perhaps its because they are animals and are unable to reciprocate that friendship. Sora never really feels like he see Misuzu as a friend more like he just feels an attachment to her.

I think in the case of Sora it’s different from the other animals, in that he also has human elements. (And appears to be some… form… of Yukito.)

The sheer amount of stuff in AIR that relates to future works is amazing to me.

I need to keep my eyes peeled for AIR references in future book clubs we do. AIR was one of the last Key works I read so I missed a lot of references to it. (Aww…)

[Pepe]

Who is the conversation at the very end between? And what does it mean??

I did put that conversation in my post, and this is what I think about the conversation:

The narration of the mother (which seems to be what was the narration in the very beginning of the dream) is that she is aware that one day, the winged beings will be gone. Since the winged beings inherit memories, they carry the memories of the earth. That said, her only wish is that, when they are gone, the memories that they leave will be happy ones. Now, since we were told back in Summer route that the winged beings inherit memories, I think that can expand to include inheriting wishes as well. Kanna’s mother’s wish became her wish: that the legacy of the winged beings be ended with good memories.

With the winged beings, they don’t need to simply say a story for their kids to get the point, because their children will inherit all their memories, and along with that, I believe, all their wishes.

I’m asking who it shifts to!

That one, I believe, shifts to Kanna. I said earlier:

She finally accepts Misuzu as her child, and gives her happy memories. That is why Misuzu was the last reincarnation of Kanna. Because she finally got good memories, allowing Kanna’s soul to “pass on” and, as she says in the end, “report to the sky her happy memories”.

I guess, in a way, it could also be Misuzu. Kanna would, naturally, have all memories of living with Misuzu, and thus Misuzu can be part of her, and Kanna part of Misuzu. So it’s something like Kanna and Misuzu talking to Haruko, I think. I guess, as a player, I also felt affected by this.

Potato makes an appearance! Apparently he’s the monster of the garden. (I think. Maybe.)

Okay now I feel bad… I totally did not get that scene… And after following the walkthrough starting from AIR route, I still didn’t manage to get it. I guess that confirms one thing (is this a new point?): The choices in Dream really do affect what happens in AIR. How does this apply to my previous point (about what exactly is Dream)

[Aspirety]

http://kazamatsuri.org/kazamatsuri-org-air-bookclub-podcast-air-route/

Looks like we have another week to discuss before the podcast!

[Pepe]

Well heh, since we have a delay and all, let’s get this party started.

I’ve been reading a few japanese sites (actually japanese yahoo answers) trying to wrap my head around the final scene. The consensus seems to be that that the young boy is an incarnation of Yukito, and the young girl is an incarnation of Misuzu and/or Kanna. The common argument is that since Yukito from the future was able to transmigrate his soul/memories into Sora in the past, then Sora of AIR route (or even Yukito of AIR route) should be able to transmigrate his soul/memories into the boy at the beach in the past.

However, I think that totally defies causality. Why so? In the dream route, Yukito had not yet figured out a way to transmigrate his soul into the past and, therefore, Sora did not exist at all in the Dream route. As I proposed earlier, Yukito seems to have enabled a new timeline that wasn’t possible by inserting the existence of “Sora” into the past. However, if we assume that the Yukito/Sora AIR transmigrated into the boy in the past, then the biggest flaw here is: Why do the boy and girl exist in the beginning of AIR route?

We know that Misuzu waves to a pair of children at the beginning of AIR, and it seems heavily implied that they are the same pair in the end scene. But if the Yukito/Sora of AIR, at that point, still did not break the curse, he couldn’t have transmigrated his (and Misuzu’s) soul into those kids, thus they should not yet be in the timeline of AIR route. They would exist in the new timeline which we were shown at the end of AIR route, because the cause of them existing had already happened.

I guess this argument can be easily ignored if we allow the possibility that the kids on the beach in the beginning of AIR are a different pair of kids, but eeeeeh

[NotKyon]

The common argument is that since Yukito from the future was able to transmigrate his soul/memories into Sora in the past, then Sora of AIR route (or even Yukito of AIR route) should be able to transmigrate his soul/memories into the boy at the beach in the past.

I guess that’s an interesting way to look at it, with the rest being “Key Magic.” But as you said, it doesn’t make any sense for the reader.

Let’s look at it another way though…

Timeline 1: Dream. Yukito puts a part of himself in the past.
Timeline 2: Air. Sora. Misuzu beats the curse, and Sora flies away.
Timeline 3: … ?

We can consider that the kids in the 2nd timeline would’ve met a similar fate. (We’re assuming that they’re actually affected by the curse here, of course. That is the consensus, right?)

I think it’s implied that the kids in the day care that Haruko was talking about (the boy and the girl) were those two kids. Sora would’ve become aware of them at this point, since he was there listening to them.

When Sora flew to the sky, Key magic! And the third timeline starts which you see from the perspective of the boy… (Which could be a fragment of Yukito, to explain his knowledge.)

^ All of the above is terrible reasoning on my part. Grasping at straws to make that work so… eh…

We also see Kanna actually flying over the world at one point. I’m not sure if there’s any significant meaning in that beyond the imagery and implied “She’s free! Yay!”

Are those pterodactyls?

[Aspirety]

Nothing in AIR is “Key Magic” in the traditional sense. I won’t elaborate further right now, but AIR is different.

As for the timeline inconsistency, it is a bit odd, yeah. There are a few ways you could explain it though. Maybe Sora WAS present in Dream, and the narrator just avoided acknowledging him. Or maybe Sora really existed in Dream, but chose not to follow Misuzu. (remember that that was the first choice you get in AIR)

So I’m that sense, AIR becomes less “A world where Sora existed”, and more “A world where Sora made a choice”. In a game with branching routes that shouldn’t be too hard to stomach.

[NotKyon]

Nothing in AIR is “Key Magic” in the traditional sense.

Hmm, I don’t quite mean it in the same way as with other games. Maybe I should have just said that the resolution’s details (and certain scenes involved) were rather ambiguous.

Or maybe Sora really existed in Dream, but chose not to follow Misuzu. (remember that that was the first choice you get in AIR)

Oh, that’s intriguing! Yeah I like that perspective.

I don’t think it solves the timeline problem though. Rather it seems to make it more complicated. (Causality, as Pepe mentions.) Sora is heavily implied to be a manifestation of Yukito, so if that’s not the case then, what did Yukito do exactly, and how did that scene where Sora becomes Yukito really play out?

I suppose we could just say that Yukito gave Misuzu more time, and Sora only appeared as Yukito in a dream, while Yukito’s memories were flooding into Sora… But that invalidates earlier scenes, where Sora is getting memories before that point.

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Open question: Were the events in Dream just a dream? @Pepe mentioned that some choices made in Dream affected things in AIR, which would imply that’s not entirely the case. But for AIR, which has “one true end,” it makes it more difficult to explain the other routes. (And you need all of the routes to get to the AIR route.)

Going back to what Aspirety said, we could also just say that the AIR route ends abruptly if you don’t follow Misuzu because the other heroines aren’t the focus of the story. So it’s perfectly reasonable to say that there isn’t in fact “one true end” to AIR, only a sort-of after story for Misuzu.

[Aspirety]

Did you already forget what ‘Dreams’ are?

[NotKyon]

Figuratively or literally? xP

Is there a specific section or discussion/post I should re-read perhaps?

[Pepe]

Timeline 1: Dream. Yukito puts a part of himself in the past.
Timeline 2: Air. Sora. Misuzu beats the curse, and Sora flies away.
Timeline 3: … ?

The third timeline, I see, is the timeline when the curse has been broken, and Yukito and Kanna/Misuzu’s soul transmigrate into the two kids, which still don’t make much sense, because the kids are also in timeline 2. There could be three options that I think may answer it:

1. The kids in Timeline 2 are a different pair of kids that just coincidentally appeared to be on the beach as well on that day
2. The kids in Timeline 2 are still Yukito and Misuzu/Kanna, but the curse has not been broken yet, and Haruko will experience that curse with them firsthand yet again at the nursery
3. The events that we see in AIR are actually in Timeline 3, and we are never actually shown Timeline 2.

Of course, this is if we assume that those kids at the end are indeed Yukito and Misuzu/Kanna

Maybe Sora WAS present in Dream, and the narrator just avoided acknowledging him. Or maybe Sora really existed in Dream, but chose not to follow Misuzu. (remember that that was the first choice you get in AIR)

Huh that is a good point indeed. Maybe the events of Dream are what happen when Sora chooses not to follow Misuzu; I totally forgot about that. I’m getting rewrite-level feels again: Because the common of Rewrite is the timeline where Kotarou chooses to attack Kagari.

Which therefore gives one more option:
The timeline of all 3 occurences (Dream, AIR, and post-epilogue) all start in the same timeline. Yukito’s soul exist in himself, in Sora, and in the boy, in all of the timelines.
However, there is still one flaw there: Causality; @NotKyon mentioned it, but I guess I will expound on it a bit. Yukito disappears in AIR because if he does not disappear, Sora’s existence would be impossible. However, we have the alternate ending, Relief, where Yukito leaves. If Yukito leaves, and doesn’t do his houjutsu with his doll and travel to the past, his soul would not be able to exist inside Sora. Therefore, in the Relief ending, Sora’s existence in itself is a paradox.

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Now then, as for Dreams, well, I did post that as a keypoint because I don’t know how to answer it xP If we think of Dreams as literally that, things that we see when we are sleeping, then how does that fit in? Are they things that Yukito dreamed all while he was asleep on the sea wall? Then why would that affect the events of AIR, yeah? Well… that’s something worth discussing in the podcast as well, heh

[Aspirety]

You clearly haven’t been reading AIR properly if you forgot what dreams mean in this story. It’s stated over and over and over again.

As for timelines, I firmly believe this ‘third timeline’ of your doesn’t exist. The boy and girl are clearly shown in early AIR route when Misuzu waves to them. It’s also very likely they existed in Dream as well and we just didn’t see them because Yukito was asleep. In all timelines, the boy and girl are there, and they leave the beach in search of what lies beyond. That doesn’t change. Your thinking of time and causality is too self-restricting.

Also, I never got this Relief ending as I didn’t see it mentioned in the walkthrough… I should go looking for it.

[Pepe]

You clearly haven’t been reading AIR properly if you forgot what dreams mean in this story. It’s stated over and over and over again.

It would be more productive if, instead of judging the way we read AIR, you gave your thoughts on what Dreams are based on what you read

If we take Misuzu’s dreams, for example, they are her means of regaining memories that she is inheriting from the winged beings. Kanna’s dreams, as well, refer to her own memories that are in her subconscious.

If we apply that to the case of Sora and Yukito, then the “dream” of Sora are the memories of his life as Yukito. So if we think of AIR as the main story, “Dream” are the memories Yukito that happened before AIR. But that raises a few questions: What about everything else that happened in Dream? Minagi route and Kano route? If the dreams are memories, then why does Yukito have those memories?

When I asked “What exactly is Dream” I meant the whole Dream and not just Misuzu’s route, after all.

As for timelines, I firmly believe this ‘third timeline’ of your doesn’t exist. The boy and girl are clearly shown in early AIR route when Misuzu waves to them.

There’s a reason why I said

still don’t make much sense

It’s exactly because they are there. I try to give ways to make this possible in the “multiple timeline” theory, but those are just retrofitting. A theory is just a theory, after all, and it isn’t the only theory we have for now.

Your thinking of time and causality is too self-restricting.

There are two views I have of time and causality at the moment: the first view is that there exist alternate timelines that interact with each other. The cause of what happens in timeline B could have originated from timeline A, which is why a suggestion has been multiple timelines.

The second view I have is there only exists one timeline, and all the choices branch-off from that single timeline. However, because there is only a single timeline, the cause of an event must happen in the same timeline.

Let’s take one very specific instance of causality, and argue around that. I propose that “Yukito using his houjutsu to travel back in time”’ is the cause of the “Sora has a choice to follow Misuzu” effect. In the multiple-timelines theory, Sora does not have a choice to follow Misuzu in Dream because Yukito had not yet used his Houjutsu in that timeline. However, the timeline of AIR has it because Yukito had allowed the cause in the previous timeline.

If we take that instance of causality and apply it to the single-timeline theory, then Relief is a big paradox. In relief, Yukito never allows the cause to happen, and yet the effect still happens in the beginning of AIR.

So now I ask, how is that too self-restricting? The only restriction I have given myself is that in order for the effect to happen, the cause must also happen somewhere, sometime. It could be in a different timeline, or it could be in the future.

Also, I never got this Relief ending as I didn’t see it mentioned in the walkthrough… I should go looking for it.

Easiest way to get this is to not remember the past on July 22nd

[Aspirety]

It would be more productive if, instead of judging the way we read AIR, you gave your thoughts on what Dreams are based on what you read

Only reason I’m being vague is because I’m saving my thoughts for the Podcast. I don’t mind engaging in some discussion here, but I’d like for you guys to figure things out without me having to tell you my interpretations. Gotta leave some anticipation for the podcast

If we apply that to the case of Sora and Yukito, then the “dream” of Sora are the memories of his life as Yukito. So if we think of AIR as the main story, “Dream” are the memories Yukito that happened before AIR.

Bing Bong.

But that raises a few questions: What about everything else that happened in Dream? Minagi route and Kano route? If the dreams are memories, then why does Yukito have those memories?

This is open to interpretation, but I’m just gonna simplify things with “Timey Wimey”.

[Pepe]

Only reason I’m being vague is because I’m saving my thoughts for the Podcast.

I can understand you being vague, sure, but the way you word it is as if you have a completely valid understanding of the “proper” way to read Air without even having it reviewed by others. Trusting the validity of your own statements without having others review it is what I mean to be not productive.

This is open to interpretation, but I’m just gonna simplify things with “Timey Wimey”.

I know that’s from Dr. Who but I don’t watch Dr. Who so I can’t get how “timey wimey” actually works. Which is why I want to discuss it, so I can understand how it works.

[Aspirety]

I can understand you being vague, sure, but the way you word it is as if you have a completely valid understanding of the “proper” way to read Air without even having it reviewed by others. Trusting the validity of your own statements without having others review it is what I mean to be not productive.

That’s what the podcast is for

I know that’s from Dr. Who but I don’t watch Dr. Who so I can’t get how “timey wimey” actually works. Which is why I want to discuss it, so I can understand how it works.

Literally this. Time is complicated and non-linear~

[Pepe]

That’s what the podcast is for

Yeah but we, right now, have no way of knowing if the “proper” way you suggest of reading AIR really is the proper way, so you can’t enforce that kind of thought on us for the moment, I think.

Literally this. Time is complicated and non-linear~

That’s like saying because it’s complicated, then it shouldn’t be understood I can’t live with that! Which is why I was approaching this from a non-linear perspective, wherein the effect relies on the cause, but the cause does not have to come before the effect on the timeline.

[Bowiie]

As for the timeline inconsistency, it is a bit odd, yeah. There are a few ways you could explain it though. Maybe Sora WAS present in Dream, and the narrator just avoided acknowledging him. Or maybe Sora really existed in Dream, but chose not to follow Misuzu. (remember that that was the first choice you get in AIR)

I would debate this based on what Sora himself talks about immediately after deciding to stay (trying to make a point without giving away podcast stuff is hard I’ll come back to this.)

[quote=“Pepe, post:31, topic:1173”]
The third timeline, I see, is the timeline when the curse has been broken, and Yukito and Kanna/Misuzu’s soul transmigrate into the two kids, which still don’t make much sense, because the kids are also in timeline 2.
[/quote]The kids are also implied to be in timeline 1 as well. Misuzu mentions even in Dream that she wants to play at the beach because she saw a couple of kids playing there while she was with Yukito who was asleep. We never see them from Yuktio’s perspective but the scene still happened.

1. The kids in Timeline 2 are a different pair of kids that just coincidentally appeared to be on the beach as well on that day
   The kids in Timeline 2 are still Yukito and Misuzu/Kanna, but the curse has not been broken yet, and Haruko will experience that curse with them firsthand yet again at the nursery
   The events that we see in AIR are actually in Timeline 3, and we are never actually shown Timeline 2

1. I’m going to throw this one out merely because I hate the convenient “Oh it was a coincidence” explanation even when it is the official explanation.
2. This seems unlikely because the explanation with the curse seems to be that they cursed girls spend most of their life alone because of the curse, it would be weird to have a childhood friend right from the get go if she was still under the effects of the curse. Plus we see Kanna flying free which implies that she is freed from the curse.
3. A wrench gets thrown into this one if we assume the kids were also in Dream.

[quote=“Pepe, post:31, topic:1173”]
Yukito disappears in AIR because if he does not disappear, Sora’s existence would be impossible. However, we have the alternate ending, Relief, where Yukito leaves. If Yukito leaves, and doesn’t do his houjutsu with his doll and travel to the past, his soul would not be able to exist inside Sora. Therefore, in the Relief ending, Sora’s existence in itself is a paradox.
[/quote]This all depends on how you think about it really. If you take it as Yukito travels into his own past as Sora and then relief happens then yes it would create a paradox; however, if you take the perspective of a multivese or diverging timelines then that would mean Yukito didn’t jump into his own past but the past of a different world line which would mean Yukito B could leave without affecting Yukito A who became Sora. But keep in mind there has to be a alpha point. If Yukito became Sora by jumping back in time that would imply there is at least one origination point where there was no Sora, which also plays into the paradox of the kids at the beach, if that is reincarnated Yukito then why was he there in Dream?

[quote=“Aspirety, post:32, topic:1173”]
It’s also very likely they existed in Dream as well and we just didn’t see them because Yukito was asleep. In all timelines, the boy and girl are there, and they leave the beach in search of what lies beyond. That doesn’t change. Your thinking of time and causality is too self-restricting.
[/quote]And Aspi beat me to that punch

[quote=“Pepe, post:37, topic:1173”]
That’s like saying because it’s complicated, then it shouldn’t be understood I can’t live with that! Which is why I was approaching this from a non-linear perspective, wherein the effect relies on the cause, but the cause does not have to come before the effect on the timeline.
[/quote]That’s actually exactly what it accomplishes in Doctor Who as well. It’s basically the Doctor’s way of saying…“You’re not going to understand it anyway.”

[Pepe]

If Yukito became Sora by jumping back in time that would imply there is at least one origination point where there was no Sora, which also plays into the paradox of the kids at the beach, if that is reincarnated Yukito then why was he there in Dream?

This is the problem I have for now with the multiple timeline theory. I try to give an explanation to the inconsistency, but as you pointed out, they stil have their flaw.

If anyone has any other theories aside from the single-timeline and multiple-timeline, please post them, I’m genuinely curious!

[NotKyon]

This is an exciting discussion! Sorry if the following reply is a bit too scattered. I’ve been passively working on it.

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Dream

Regarding Dream, one conclusion is that everything else is just “this is what could have happened.” Not a dream in a literal sense of “Yukito was dreaming this all up,” but in the sense of “this is what the reader’s choices would have led to if they were Yukito.” That’s sort of like all multiple route VNs, but in this case there’s a difference in that there’s “one true end.” Although even then we still need two timelines, unless you want to throw out the whole “Sora is Yukito’s future self experiencing the past as a bird” thing.

Perhaps there is a specific part I should re-read though. “All of AIR” is sort of… a lot to reread in less than a week. xP

Timelines and the two children

However, @Bowiie derailed my thought train with:

This seems unlikely because the explanation with the curse seems to be that they cursed girls spend most of their life alone because of the curse, it would be weird to have a childhood friend right from the get go if she was still under the effects of the curse. Plus we see Kanna flying free which implies that she is freed from the curse.

So… One way to resolve that, which is really just grasping at straws to “prove” a theory (which shouldn’t be done IMO) is: The future timeline affected the past timeline as an inevitability. That means that the only true timeline is the one in which Misuzu succeeds and breaks the curse. Everything else would deviate from that “fixed event.” (Teehee, I got to bring in a Haruhi thing. Best term for the concept I’m thinking of though, I think.) In other words, it could have only happened that way. All the other choices are just “this would be what happened if…”

Although that resolution kind of plays into @Aspirety’s Doctor Who reference of “Timey Wimey” (i.e., “too complicated; viewers shouldn’t worry about it” / “don’t sweat the details”).

If we consider my above explanation to be invalid, then how does the boy know about Yukito and Misuzu’s struggles? ← Related to my earlier Key point.

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Impression of Yukito

I forgot to mention this earlier, but I wanted to give my impression of Yukito in AIR. Aside from Sora declaring him to be an enemy early on (ha), there was one scene that had all the more impact in AIR than in Misuzu’s route… After Misuzu’s first fit, Yukito is gone and Misuzu explains herself and her problem to Sora. Then she goes to buy a brick some juice, and she notices Yukito. Anyway, when Yukito chases after her like “Woah hey, no. I’m going to stay by your side! I’m not just going to leave over something like this” had a lot of impact for me. (More so than in Dream, since we get to see more of what Misuzu is feeling.)

Really, just seeing things from a different perspective made this route really special too.

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Scattered replies

I know that’s from Dr. Who but I don’t watch Dr. Who

Oh noes! Pepe, Doctor Who is awesome! (Well, I’ve only seen the post-2005 version, but still.)

Sorry, this had no relevance to the discussion.

Only reason I’m being vague is because I’m saving my thoughts for the Podcast.

Such a tease! As if I didn’t have enough anticipation for the podcast already. xP

Although that is making it difficult for me (at least) to effectively communicate. When the other person’s views are a mystery, effective communication becomes more error prone. Guess I’ll have to wait for the podcast~

the boy and girl are there, and they leave the beach in search of what lies beyond.

I really liked the way you put that. That whole scene was really nice, even if enigmatic.

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If anyone has any other theories aside from the single-timeline and multiple-timeline, please post them, I’m genuinely curious!

^ I second this!