That took me a while to understand @_@
But I’d have to disagree with that. I believe that people meet because of circumstance but love because of who their partners are.
I feel like most, if not all, of us think too much here xD
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I feel that that might not always be the case. Like, your parents for example, do they love you for who you are, or do they love you because you are their child?
That’s not to say loving for any other reason is any less justified. The love of said parent would be stronger than many other kinds of love, whether or not they are caused by personalities being attuned to each other. But it is inherently a boost to one’s ego to be loved for who you are because it validates that your existence is something that can be justified.
Perhaps Kotori does feel that way. Perhaps she feels the only justification for her existence is being assigned the role of the druid and, should that be taken away, her existence would be meaningless. Such an idea is enforced by the loss of her family which, whether we like it or not, justifies our existence from birth all the way to our own adulthood.
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I can’t really answer that considering there’s many factors in that question. For example, it’s under circumstance you became their child, thus they loved you, yet as you grow older, it’s less of “because you’re their child” but more of the bond you had with them, thus can no longer be called “love because of circumstance.”
Wasn’t her justification for existence because of Kotarou? But, even if it is not, I don’t think that her job as a druid justifies her existence, I mean, she slacked off as a druid for many years just to have fun and experience fun memories like school and stuff.
Nope. Parents may be the reason why were born and they may be the part of the reason as to how we’ve grown into this character we are now, but they do not completely justify our existence (plus, there are many other factors which helped shape us the way we are now). It is what we do and what we leave into the world.
I still somewhat consider it circumstance as it was circumstance that caused you to gain such a bond. I definitely do not consider it as “loving someone for their personality” is what I was trying to get at.
Hmm, I don’t quite remember the dialogue but the argument still stands. She was afraid that Kotarou was only drawn to her because she thought he was her familiar. If she realizes that to be true, then it would invalidate her existence, I propose.
Allow me to elaborate; When I say “justify one’s existence” what I mean by that is it gives us a meaning to what we do. We go to school because our parents want us to. We play video games because our parents gave it to us. And so on.
However, once we justify what we do by ourselves (like, we say we go to school because we have a goal to achieve) then that is already something we are doing that is towards our own adulthood. Some people realize this way sooner than others, and can act more independent earlier than others.
Well that’s all getting into a bit of developmental psychology which, honestly, I have no formal experience in soooo… I shouldn’t get too much into that
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This is kinda off topic, but I agree with what you have said Pepe. Your mindset is really good and I think you could be a really good psychologist if you want to try that. I myself have a lot of experience and Im actually suprised by some of your sentences. Such as
Srsly Speechless, really awesome interpretation and thought.
To Include Kotori, as you know her parents are pretty much dead so she did a familiar of them soooo yeah. I do feel like they loved her as who she is tho. I mean before she became a druid.
I mean she was pretty much genius and stuff, and if I recall correctly she had good relationship with her parents.
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You guys are discussing something that really doesn’t work. This is a matter of getting your own ideals and claiming them as the norm, and then using those to reference Kotori’s behavior. We know that Kotori didn’t have many friends apart from her parents and Kotarou. We know that she cares for them a lot, even if she forgets it sometimes, and is willing to be selfish to keep those friends. As she grew older, she got self-conscious, and started to wonder if she was being too selfish, which is a matter that is entirely subjective to anyone you ask.
Whether it was romantic or not, Kotori thought about Kotarou for years, because he was one of the few things in her life, and as we find out later in the route, he was actually the only thing in her life aside from her druid stuff, something she was willing to toss aside for Kotarou.
Part of it is that he was there, and part of it is that Kotori wanted attention. Part of it is that they enjoyed spending time together, and part of it is that they couldn’t really part. It’s both who and why.
It gives YOU a meaning, at least.
Because law requires it*
Is this because you asked them to get that game for you? Forcing yourself to do something because of the title “parent” doesn’t sound fun.
Ditto the law comment.
Disagree. Social worker or something would be great with that attitude, but Pepe’s comments are positive and asserting. If you speak like that as a psychologist, you might be throwing false ideals into those who come for help. A psychologist explores with minimal interference - they don’t reassure; that’s dangerous.
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I do not claim it to be a truth, as I did note my analysis of her behavior with a “Perhaps” (and many of them, at that). So yes, I agree that it is entirely subjective. However, I feel that this is one way of analyzing it. In other words, don’t take my word as truth, please. Even I don’t entirely believe in that analysis xP
I feel it gives everyone who has a parent figure a meaning until they learn to think independently but hey if you disagree I won’t enforce my thoughts ￢(゜～゜)Γ
I don’t think kids that have yet to think independently have figured out that the law is somehow involved in the things that they are doing.
I don’t quite get what you mean with this sentence. Is it the child forcing himself? Or the parent forcing himself?
It’s an example okaaaaaay. We could learn to think independently and decide that we do not want to go to school at all but still do it because, yeah, the law forces it. Point I was trying to make is that until people learn to think independently, a lot of the driving force in what they do is from their parents. Not like they actually think “what is the meaning of my existence” at that point but I feel it follows 
I’m all about independent thinking, and I don’t like telling people “you think like this because of [reasons]” when they themselves have totally different reasons that they perceive. But when it comes to children, who often don’t ponder the “why” of what they do, many times that “why” can be attributed to their parents.
Back to Kotori, who lost her parents at such a young age, we have no idea whether or not she was aware already of her reasons for “being”. If she wasn’t, then her loss would only enforce her lack of reason for “being” which was immediately transferred to that of being a druid.
Taka, I didnt mean it in that way.
You can disagree that is fine. But we are not throwing fake ideals to anyone and for those who comes for help.
… Taka I understand that you dont like the notion of parents being a driving force for people, so I dont. But I think you are missing a point here. I meant a child - parent relationship. It’s all based on an open communication and how the specific child is upbringed.
Also I loved the thought -> “do they love you for who you are, or do they love you because you are their child?” This is reaaaally an important and deepful thought that a normal social worker wouldn’t think of (well most of the times)
Yes true, but I dont want to discuss that since you have a specific point of view and Im not comfortable with it cuz I have my own experience. Sorry Taka :p. Also I think we are getting off topic so lets just leave that for now.
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When is “thinking independently” something they are capable of? Is Kotori not that age yet? Do you not think she was capable of this all the way back when she was still with her parents? When she was that smart little girl?
The legal requirements were told pretty straight-up to me when I started school. My little sister knew when she was at least 5 years of age.
Kid: “Why do I have to go to school?”
Parent: “Because it’s the law.”
Whether that’s true or not wherever you live in the world, if you get told something is the law, you generally follow it, unless it’s a stupid law, or you are bored nod nod.
I’m not sure what people you are trying to describe. It’s certainly not Kotori though, and it’s not the vast majority of people.
I was asking you, so I guess it wouldn’t be from the parent perspective Why would a child play something just because their parents got them.
Not always. The amount of people I know who just gave up on school, despite legal repercussions, would be impossible to count on both hands. I’ve had many many weeks of just leaving classes whenever I wasn’t allowed to sleep through them, or taking a “break” to go buy something downtown.
When I first started school, when I was about 4 or 5 years old, there was this kid named Ben in my class. If he didn’t want to do something, he didn’t do it. They changed the small school fence into a large brick wall because kids like Ben kept climbing out of the school premises. Is that independent thought?
If so, almost everyone I’ve ever known has lived on independent thought. The only times they haven’t, are either in big legal situations, or when at a young age they are threatened with being “told off” by an older person - parent or not. The actual “parent” name doesn’t mean much for most people I knew until they hit the teenage years, at which point reason and conscience kick in. If anything, we start off independent, and get taught what titles mean what, and who we should or should not respect.
I’ve babysat a lot. Whenever kids (these were between the age of 4 and 6) were faced with a why question, the response was “because.” Parents didn’t factor into reason - To kids, something that has to happen is just something that has to happen, unless they can control it themselves. There’s a bunch of studies on this type of thing, but basically it takes a while for people to realize that other people exist, and that they aren’t just an npc to entertain or restrict.
I think it’s unlikely for a teen to know what their reason for being is, never mind a child, but Kotori was smart. I imagine it’d be more of a “who/what now” question with her parents gone, just going with the flow, until Kotarou shows up.
I never said anyone was. I said that, as a Psychologist, you can’t be the one speaking about such subjects with certainty - It’s indoctrinating. The patient is the one who needs to find certainty in their own thoughts, a Psychologist is just a helping hand. You don’t want to push them in a direction shouting “oh, parents! Maybe friends! It’s this/that!” You want them to find their own things.
You understand incorrectly Anything can be a driving force for people, parents included (they are a thing too!) I just don’t believe you should fixate on a certain idea of another person’s driving force.
I think that’s downplaying social workers ^^; It’s a fairly simple idea imo. I don’t know what it’s like in other countries, but in England we have 3 common classifications of love (you see it on cards or photos or when teasing people.) You have: friendship, people you enjoy spending time with; family, the people who take care of you; and romance, the people who you love love.
Naturally you can have romance and friendship at the same time. You can have family and friendship at the same time. Law dictates one of the combinations is wrong… but it’s out there in some places.
It’s a very commonplace trinity, so in England, that’s not a big thing. It’s elementary.
Kotori and Kotarou are friends in Rewrite, and there’s a bit of romance in there too. They could also see each other as family, but I think the distance Kotori puts up negates that a bit. It’s like Kotarou mentions - him, Yoshino and Kotori are all the same, and they are close for that, but they remain distant from each other. There’s some friendship and some romance, but the barriers stop them from being familiar (AND THEN IN COMES THE YOSHIBRO! TOOT TOOT!)
Pfft, you haven’t heard my point of view. My opinion on this is pretty illogical and (like most of my opinions) it wouldn’t hold up in a discussion. I just say the most common opinions from the life I’ve lived. My opinions are much less watered down by the realist nonsense. RIP originality~
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That’s a hard question to answer and, as you stated before, would be very subjective. It is my opinion that, when she was a child and lost her parents, she may not have been capable of such yet. Yes she was a smart little girl, but I think the way she reacted to her dog was one indication; she didn’t seem very aware of her own emotions towards that dog back then.
The Kotori now, however, is very much capable of such thought. Which is why I was trying to say that her being a druid drove most of her reason for a large part of her life as a child.
That’s a very interesting sentiment, and one that I have not heard of yet. It’s worth rethinking my example, for sure.
Oh well okay. In that case, my thought was that a child plays those games because it has been made available by the parents. Some may straight up ask for it, while others are given it. But the parents have a part in making it available to them is what I was trying to say.
In hindsight, these are pretty terrible examples, yes, but I hope I was still able to get my point across >_<
And the amount who continue despite not wanting to simply because of legal repercussions would be impossible to count as well
In my opinion, it could either be or not be. The important part here is understanding the “why” of what you do. Why did Ben not want to do these things? If he could answer beyond a simple “it’s not fun” then I could classify that as independent thought.
This is the most interesting part: when you look past this “because” that they cannot provide an answer to, then exactly what is the answer to it? It is my theory that the parents play a big part in this “because”. Granted we can’t confirm it, because they themselves may not be aware, plus the fact that there are so many external factors that affect it… But I think it seems natural that they play a big part?
It was some time in between her becoming a druid and finding Kotarou, was it not? And even after she found Kotarou, she still continued it, did she not? Even if it was something forced upon her, I still think it plays a factor in her upbringing.
In that case, I should apologize in behalf of @IkaCZ as I was the one who suggested that idea to him (in chat). It was something I “felt” from our discussion here, but feelings are unreliable as shit, and I apologize for misunderstanding your thoughts
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Have we read the same route? Or is there other Kotori’s route O_O At least from my perspective, Kotori’s route is far from being cute or similar to Shizuru’s.
Since Kotori didn’t belong to Guardian nor Gaia, that was a lot of uncovered stuff. Kotori didn’t know much about the Key, what was that song, or the two organizations. So, Kotori’s route had a pretty heavy atmosphere of fear and they didn’t know what were they dealing with exactly. Even when the route finishes, a lot of questions is left unsolved. And to make things worse, Kotori has the creepiest background of all the heroines.
Just correcting one mistake I committed: actually, I don’t hate ichaicha. I don’t like them, I find it boring. But when it’s a girl I truly love, there’s no way I can’t enjoy it. Like in Lucia’s route (although I’d say Lucia’s route had much more proper “romance” than ichaicha). The problem it’s that if I don’t really love the girl, I will not like the ichaicha. So I prefer if the writers avoid this.
The fact that Kotori didn’t know wasn’t something that really came to mind, because I didn’t know either. I didn’t know Guardian or Gaia, or the Key, or the song.
The route felt like an introduction to those ideas, and a bit of time with Kotarou and Kotori. There was lighthearted joking all the way through until the end, and the end was always hopeful despite the situations thrown at the duo.
Maybe if I read it again after reading other routes it’d feel different, but because I read it first, it just felt like a small area of coming-of-age romcom within a strange world that you’ll find out more about in other routes.
I wasn’t talking about that ichaicha thing. Yuiko’s route, Sasami’s route, the added TaKanako scenes in TA:ME, and the Shizuru route; they have some of my favorite romance scenes from the modern Key. The scenes aren’t really stand-out, but they are very sweet. As I said though, Tonokawa is hit-and-miss. Komari and Chihaya had romance as an afterthought.
Kotori’s route was the penultimate I read, so that must be why.
Could you please give examples of the romantic scenes you like, specially from Yuiko’s route (the romance in her route, aside from the confession and pre-confession and the rain scene, was all boring ichaicha for me).
But I agree in Shizuru’s case, the romance in her route was very sweet and enjoyable. It was good because it didn’t have much ichaicha.
And what’s TA;ME? I have no idea of what you’re talking about. And Sasami’s route? I thought EX/ME was still untranslated…
So you’d done all but Shizuru? o.o I can see why you’d think so differently of it then… wow.
Yuiko ,the white-out finale, and the post-refrain meetup.
Sasami’s sacrifice, oh, and the Kengo stuff.
TaKanako could just talk and be happy talking, even if they were reluctant sometimes.
Shizuru the obvious one is the saury story, but the diary is nice too, and Gen’s Ramen shop scenes.
Tomoyo After: Memorial Edition.
It is. One day Doki, one day!
Sasami’s route is the only one I read. I feel like the other routes deserve better than edited machine TLs, but Sasami’s is a bit of silly fun in comparison.
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What is the order you did? Mine was Lucia - Chihaya - Akane - Kotori - Shizuru. I usually put the heroines I least like to the bottom of the list. By doing this, it increases the chances of me enjoying the first routes, and having a better impression of the work and decreasing the chance of me dropping it (there’s no guarantee it will happen, but still…) I liked Shizuru, but her route was locked by the route whose heroine I least liked.
Oh yeah, that were some quite good romantic scenes.
Kotori>Shizuru>Lucia>Chihaya>Akane. I think I got it a bit mixed up, but 3 of the routes felt like they were in the right place.
I think the ideal order would be Kotori>Chihaya>Shizuru>Lucia>Akane.
The idea was that, since an order was enforced, I’d go with the cover girl first, and then I’d beeline for Lucia (least favorite common route character) and then beeline for Akane (favorite common route character.)
With standard VNs, I just pick my favorite character’s route and then either slowly get through the others or drop it.
With VNs that lock routes behind others, I avoid my favorite character’s route whenever possible.
With VNs that have an ending that unlocks after every route, I try to read all of the routes, but sometimes a route is so bad that I have to skip it.
Of course if the VN is bad from the start, no matter if it enforces a route order or not, I’ll just go for best girl and then drop it.
If I picked my favorite character’s route in a story that relies on finishing all the routes, I’d just end up dropping the VN after my favorite’s is over.
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One thing I’ve never understood was the choice with ONLY one option in Kotori’s route. Seriously, they didn’t show us there were other options or anything. It was just one option you HAD to click to continue the route. What’s the point of that?
Okay I just skimmed through quickly. The situation is that Kotarou sees the leaf dragon while searching for Kotori and the forced choice is to attack it. After you make the choice it first seems like you die, but it was just Kotarou running a mental simulation. So it may just be showing that Kotarou thinks in game mechanics.
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I remember that choice and, honestly, the “only one choice” felt a bit comedic to me XD Maybe others didn’t get that vibe because of the gravity of the situation, but that’s how I saw it
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Okay, so two things first: 1) At this point I have only read Kotori’s route and the common leading up to it. My opinion very well may change later, and I might sound kinda ignorant about the VN as a whole. 2) I skipped most of the above discussion since a ton of it is comparing this route to the rest of the VN, so pardon me if I repeat a bunch of stuff others have already said.
Ah, its been awhile since I’ve written something like this for a VN! I guess I’ll say: It was very good, but it left me with so much to think about that it almost gives me a headache to try and comprehend it all at once. Its ironically similar to the condition of Inoue after her trauma.
I really like all the foreshadowing and build up! Though it made the info dumping not so much info dumping as just confirming everything they had basically been hinting at up until then. Like, it wasnt surprising, but it was still interesting.
I really enjoyed slowly coming to understand what had happened to Kotarou. Finding out why his relationships with everyone seemed so… off. And why Yoshino treats him the way he does. And then to majorly build on top of that as Kotori explains how he used to be.
The middle part right around the info dumping gave off major F/SN vibes for me. What with, you know, the info dumping. And the training. And the conflict of familiars being tools, not living beings. But I really like the way Kotori’s route took it much further. What really are the familiars? Are they alive or are they dead? What does it really mean for Kotarou to be a familiar.
And thats really went shit kinda went down. Im not sure I would call it depressing, but it was very deep, and very dark. Im having trouble recalling every level of it all, but the whole thing described humanity very well. All the suffering.
It was especially interesting to watch because Kotarou feels so ignorant, but he has to watch and support Kotori while she struggles so much. And then the conflict between whether or not the Key should actually live, what Salvation really is, what Kotarou really is.
It was almost like the whole thing was all about identity crisis. Of Kotarou realizing what happened to him, that he might not be now who he really is. Kotori realizing that what she has committed her life to for the past 10 years may or may not be the actual right thing to do. And the identity crisis of humanity itself, and how its supposed to interact with nature. Hell, what is nature itself, and what is the Key, and why was it laughing. It sure seems like those last ones will continue to show up throughout the entire VN, Im guessing.
Dammit my thoughts are so jumbled.
I guess I almost expected it to end with Kotori and Kotarou collapsing in the field, dead. That would have certainly fit the mood and theme. But actual ending was fitting in its own right. Im kinda hoping at some point I’ll get a bit more insight into why it ends without us seeing Kotori agian.
I guess if I had to describe one thing that I didnt like it was actually that I had no idea what was gonna happen next, and it was so fast pace in parts. Now, thats also a humongous positive too, its something I really liked about the writing. But because of it I wasnt able to stop and really think about what each part meant. And it almost makes me want to reread it right away.
Blehck, that was a bunch of random mumble jumble. I definitely still need to recollect my thoughts on this, and definitely reread at some point. Maybe I’ll be able to think more deeply about all this later, especially after finishing the whole VN. Thanks for bearing with me, guys~
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