Nakige (Crying Game): Opinions and discussion

Off-Topic
#21

If that’s the case, Haruka’s route in Little Busters felt more like this to me than a nakige.

[quote=“sillylittlemelody, post:9, topic:1006”]
For example, would you consider AIR had a happy or sad ending?
[/quote]AIR’s ending felt pretty ambiguous, and left many things to interpretation, so it’s very difficult to tell if it is happy or sad.

[quote=“EndOfRefrain, post:11, topic:1006”]
Are you telling me, that you didnt cry in Rewrite?
[/quote]Not speaking against Rewrite in particular, but I’ve never legitimately cried while reading any Key game. I doubt Rewrite is going to make me shed any tear, but I’ll still read it anyways, because that’s not why I read nakige in the first place.

[quote=“Takafumi, post:13, topic:1006”]
We start transforming Nakige from a term to an opinion. I could argue that AIR isn’t a Nakige because it didn’t make me cry at all, but we all know that it is one. We could start saying that only specific routes are Nakige.What matters is intention.
[/quote]AIR was the game that was closest to making me shed tears, so I can see how nakige can be determined by opinion rather than a term. Perhaps it was because I was intent on finding a reason to cry, but the intention was there.

[quote=“Hirato, post:17, topic:1006”]
Ok, there were sad moments and they were definitely made to make us cry, but somehow I just couldn’t cry reading them. Most of the time they only made me frown in depression.
[/quote]You’ve pretty much nailed my reaction to every ending of every Key game I’ve read.

[quote=“Nocturne, post:18, topic:1006”]
Similar to how people react when someone tells you “Watch/read this, it will make you cry”, I don’t find that too alluring, not exactly the first thing most people think of when wanting to enjoy themselves.
[/quote]I suppose that’s what makes it difficult to recommend nakige. People don’t want to cry, they want to be happy. But if you tried to falsely advertise CLANNAD based off its humor, people would hate you when they get to the drama parts. It’s hard to get my siblings back into nakige because they did not like how CLANNAD made them cry. I’m actually pretty worried about the prospect of getting my mother into nakige, because she’s not very well-informed on how anime works.

In short, it kind of sucks to feel like the only person in the States who likes niche products like nakige. (I know it’s not the truth, but still… :confused: )

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#22

I love the way you put this because it is exactly that reunion that gets me to cry

A lot of the discussion after this has been going into the definition as to what a Nakige really is but it seems it’s a lot more subjective to base something on how well it makes somebody cry. After all, crying is a very subjective thing. Which is exactly why I like this definition a lot. As a more general term, a nakige is a game that aims to leave an emotional impact on the player. It’s a game that makes you feel.

I don’t know what else to say about Nakige except that I love them. They make me feel and these feelings remind me that I am human. Much in the same way that I love drama. If there is one thing I do hate about it is that they usually make their characters a bit too innocent. But, hey, I guess it’s hard to feel any emotion towards a character if you view them as somebody who is at fault… I guess I’m the exception with this, then

#23

Oh this is a dangerous line to dance. Don’t get me wrong I do like drama in my Nakigesk (kek) stories. Drama feels like it drives the conflict that keeps the wheels of the story moving…but I will never make the blanket statement of I love drama mainly because I am still not removed far enough from High School to remember all the teen angsty drama bull that seemed to somehow fill the air that we breathed daily…that and the sheer amount of “drama” shows that are so popular on US television right now…I’m looking at you soaps!

#24

As I said above. It’s not about if someone cried, it’s about the intention and the pattern followed.

AoD’s definition sounds very out of date, especially the “emotional reunion” part. The romance part isn’t even a must-have trait of Nakige anymore. Romance-genre VNs of the Nakige category have that, but not all Nakige.

Some drama is like a nice plot device that gets you invested.
Then you get something like NagiAsu, or your average K-drama, where it becomes seriously stressful to watch. You just want it to calm down!

I don’t think I know any teen angsty drama things though… Didn’t think drama was a popular enough genre in the west to stand on it’s own.

#25

The worst perpetrators are the teen drama shows, of which there are tons and tons. As for well done drama there are some that are done well, and conversely some that make you want to stab yourself in the eye to set yourself free. We did have a television channel there for a while that used a tagline something like Your Home For Drama.

#26

I think it’s more of those “love to watch it; hate when it happens to you” sort of things. I think that fits in really well with many stories simply because we, as people, try to avoid those situations and, thus, have those situations become even more unfamiliar and thus, more interesting as stories

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#27

Thanks Pepe, I only really meant for the definition to be a starting point to build off of so that we could all know we’re talking about the exact same thing, but I guess that kinda flopped.

[quote=“Takafumi, post:24, topic:1006”]
AoD’s definition sounds very out of date, especially the “emotional reunion” part. The romance part isn’t even a must-have trait of Nakige anymore.
[/quote]I’ll give you that. Romance isn’t actually a must, but it is probably the most commonly used. The reunion is a defining part of the genre though and I have yet to see a nakige do well without it. Granted, it might take a bit of a different form, but I still think something to that effect needs to be there for it to be a nakige.

#28

Well, no, because of the ending. Utsuge are (usually) supposed to leave you feeling depressed, while Nakige (usually) have some sort of positive resolution.

So here’s something to think about: Obviously the pattern(s) proposed by @AngelofDeath720 and @Takafumi seem to be the most effective at accomplishing the goal of a nakige. But, is this structure necessary? Basically, do you think that an effective, quality nakige could be written with a different pattern.

Personally, I want to say yes, it is possible. But unfortunately I don’t have any good examples.

#29

Very useful Takafumi and everybody… thanks for sharing.
I think I agree. The happy ending isn’t always there, at least in the traditional occidental, simpler way (generally speaking as an occidental who’s been exposed to tons of films and series with very straightforward happy endings).

I believe -as far as I know- Key focuses more on positive endings, and it uses the emotions in order to reach that positivism emphatically.
In fact, we can find that positivism all over their works, even in the most tragic/dramatic moments. The “you must keep on walking” is their leitmotiv (maybe that’s one of the reason some people call many stories “the story that changed my life”).

  • I may rewrite this post after reading my next VNs, but, if the anime reflects the VN feeling decently, then my opinion will be the same.

Having said that I guess it’s hard to use a single word to describe Key’s genre… I guess.-

It becomes predictable, even when they try to avoid that (always different places, seasons, music, topics, narration style)… but, Key’s magic is: you may already know a lot of things, and cry/laugh anyway. That’s remarkable.

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#30

I think it’d be kind of hard, really. The general pattern just… works. It was even implemented by Steins;Gate in one way or another. Removing one part will either make it just funny or just happy or just sad (cue utsuge). Like you said, though, it probably could be achieved but I can’t think of any examples, whether existing or potential.

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#31

I’m really not sure here, if the game “To the Moon” follows this Nakige-Progression of storytelling or not. Since its story is told in a chronologically backward way, you are basically going from the most recent memory of a dying man to his child memories to fulfill his wish of him going to the moon, the story has a progression of failure->how that failure came to be->repeat those steps a few times. The only comic relief here is really your characters as they comment on the man’s experiences.
After that though the elements of drama and reunion are definitely there. So I don’t know if that counts as an example without using the usual progression or if To the Moon even counts as Nakige in the first place.

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#32

I’d say it qualifies pretty well. TtM is actually what first got me interested in nakige, and ultimately lead to me discovering Key. I’d even say it counts no matter which way you go in terms of time.
If we use the nakige formula laid out by Takafumi, and apply it based on the order in which Neil and Eva experienced events, you’ve got:

  1. Comedy: Virtually everything up until Neil and Eva watch the conversation where River decided not to seek medical treatment (not sure if this can count as a spoiler since it’s pretty early on, but…)
  • Drama: The scene I just specified, all the way up until the scene where they find out who ‘Joey’ really was
  • Relief: The carnival scene, and the subsequent realisation of exactly why Johnny wished to go to the Moon
  • …Which quickly turns back to drama: Eva realises what she has to do to fulfill her contractual obligation, and makes a risky bet without telling Neil. Eva is counting on a lot of variables: She needs River to be the type to remember and take literally that promise from when they were kids; she needs Johnny to realise that River would be that type of person; she needs them to both apply for the same mission… (I could go on, but I won’t.) Neil (and most of the audience) throughout this is thinking that Eva has ruined everything, but, in the end, her gamble pays off, which brings us to…
  • Positive conclusion: Johnny and River meet as astronauts, wind up living their old life, but this time wind up never having the issues they did before, and River can even be seen living with Johnny in his final years, where Lily would have been. Even Neil tries to get a little of the love for himself and goes for Eva’s hand on the bridge. Lily gets the house, and Anya never has to be alone again.

However, it also works if you take events in the order Johnny did:

  1. Comedy: The carnival scene
  • Drama: Joey’s death
  • Relief: Beta-blocker-induced amnesia; blissfull ignorance of what happened, followed by an otherwise unremarkable adolescence and the beginning of his long-term relationship with River
  • Drama: River starts acting strange. The marriage seems to disintegrate, and then she dies. He’s sick and alone, and he doesn’t even understand the point of his last wish.
  • Positive conclusion: Neil and Eva grant his wish, and at last he understands why. He gets to enjoy the long, happy, healthy marriage that he and River both deserved. Also, Joey lives.
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