All Heroines make comments heavily suggesting they know about the secret of the world. I paid a lot of attention to that when I last read it. That was 2 years ago though, so I don’t remember the details; I just have my not so helpful notes from the time. My conclusion anyway was that everyone knows but not 100% of the time: they are sometimes made to forget things. I drew on a lot of stuff from the Refrain topic too. Little Busters! - Refrain Arc Discussion
About Komari
So after the hotcake party, on the 27th, it’s hinted that Komari knows the secret. On the 28th however she doesn’t know about Riki’s narcolepsy so her memories might have been tempered with.
About Haruka
Kanata helps Kud throw away her stuff and speaks like she has done it many times, which she probably has.
She also says april was a long time ago. for Riki it’s 2 months but for the others it’s much longer.
When they’re fixing the bench Haruka makes it sound like her memory has been messed with.
About Kud
Kud doesn’t remember her mother’s accident. When she appears on the news, Kud starts realizing something is wrong. She has nightmares of the accident but she can’t remember them after waking up. When they hear of the crash, she remembers it all. The accident in Tevua happened only about a week before the school trip. Kud’s struggle had to be locked up and is being solved in real-time, in the route.
Mio also demonstrates a pretty vivid understanding of the world they’re in when talking to Riki on the beach. Though she seems a little uncertain, like she’s mostly figured it out but not 100%.
I think you two are misreading that little bit from the post.
To be “largely unaware” does not mean to be completely unaware. There is a huge difference in the wording. There are several points in the visual novel that make it quite apparent the female cast has an inkling of what may be going on, however they can not retain those memories due to the lack of willpower they have compared to the male cast.
Though I do have to give credit when they are due. Yes, those few things you noticed, Helios, are in fact a few subtleties many might have missed upon first reading.
Mio has always been someone that’s interested me in how in tune she is with the world and how exceptionally insightful she is with a lot of things. However, since she is more focused on her DID (Midori, specifically), I can see why she wouldn’t be able to fully grasp the “secret” as well as Kurugaya had been (nearly) able to.
I don’t think it is because a lack of willpower than the cast can’t retain those memories but perhaps a question of permission of the person.
In the end of Refrain, Kyousuke talks about the role of Masato and Kengo, who continue to help Rin and Riki. It is likely also the role of girls to forget because their memories or their experience of previous routes can be an obstacle to behave normally and disappear after.
Interact and offers a chance to mature to Riki is important but how Kud would react after seeing her mother to be executed. Her personnality and behavior would have changed. The same thing happens with Haruka who commits a suicide in the bad end.
The loop isn’t a gift when traumatic events are repeated
It explains a little how Kuruguya and Kanata keep some memories. They accept not completely this agreement. In the case of Kanata, she doesn’t think her sister can be helped.
To Kuruguya, she doesn’t want to lose her feeling toward Riki.
It’s clear Kengo and Masato can retain their memories of the metaphysical world. So then why aren’t they gods of the world too? How come they are unable to change elements of the world to their fitting?
If it’s not about who has the willpower and the love they have for Riki and Rin, then why isn’t any of the other cast able to become gods of the world as well? Then what does it matter on who has “permission” if they can just make themselves a god of the world as well?
Once you really think about that question, it becomes abundantly clear in order for one to become fully aware of the loop, one must possess a certain will to maintain that knowledge. The reason why Masato and Kengo are not capable of being “gods” of the world is because they still don’t have that willpower Kyousuke has demonstrated in the Refrain arc. One also can not deny the agape love Kyousuke has for Riki and Rin.
After that all has been taken into consideration, it’s evident one’s will and love for the two contributes to the ability of being able to retain memories while most others can not.
It may have been a while, so I will have to go back and re-read some parts, but I don’t believe Kanata had ever “kept memories” at all. If she says anything that will appear as though she may remember some things, I think that’s more because she may be recalling some procedural memories connected to something she remembers from her subconscious. Not entirely the same thing.
As far as Kurugaya goes, she too doesn’t “remember” everything. If you go back, you’ll find she had to keep notes to herself in order to remember certain key facts. We all can agree Kurugaya has a certain strength (and I don’t mean physical) most others do not possess. For that reason, she is capable of manifesting her own time loop whereas none of the other female cast were capable of even coming close to reproducing. However, she still lacked the power to retain memories and maintain the sub-loop she had subconsciously created.
It is undeniable that there is something that is required in order to keep the memories. It could not have been by chance in any means where Kyousuke, Kengo, and Masato were able to keep their memories of the cognizant world. Even less so with Kyousuke being literally god of the world.
I always assumed that he had the strongest will on the world because of a mix of things. First being that he’s the leader, the others have trusted him and their wishes empowering the world generally work towards what Kyousuke is planning. He appears stronger because everyone is (for the most part) working in unison with his plans.
Second being that he’s the only one with an active connection to reality, therefore being the linking force keeping them all alive.
Third being he has conviction. Masato and Kengo hold doubt which naturally weakens their grasp on a world born from strong wishes. However when Kyousuke starts to doubt himself or his cause, he quickly denies it in favor of his current actions, regardless of what his current actions are. The only time Masato and Kengo get a strong grip on the world is when they throw aside doubt.
I think you’re looking at this in the wrong light. She doesn’t lack the power to do those things so much as the other 7 people together have the power to do those things. In this case Yuiko was fighting 7/10ths of the reason the world exists, meanwhile she was losing her memories of the fight even existing. Pretty hard to overpower that.
Takafumi, a lot of what you said in regards to the question I had asked falls in line with a lot with what I was trying to say. Especially:
That desire to make Riki and Rin stronger is perhaps one of the focal point of his “power” that also helped create the world in the first place. Though I’m confused as to what you’re trying to say here:[quote=“Takafumi, post:26, topic:4169”]
The only time Masato and Kengo get a strong grip on the world is when they throw aside doubt.
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They’ve always had a strong grip of the world. They just don’t have the same “conviction” you had mentioned Kyousuke having. It’s because of that vast difference Kyousuke was able to control the world at his fingertips. To the point, even, where he had caused Masato to go insane.
I’m sorry, but this makes little sense at all to what you were trying to argue. What I was trying to explain in that paragraph is that while Kurugaya may have become somewhat cognizant of the phenomenon that was occurring in that world, she still was unable to have the same god-like powers Kyousuke have. Not to mention this sub-loop was something that was most likely created subconsciously.
The rest of the female cast were there to help the world retain cohesion. They didn’t make the world as much as they just subconsciously assisted in making sure the dream world does not collapse.
So what is the “fight” you are talking about? I have no idea what you are trying to say with:
The world literally only exists to help Riki and Rin grow stronger. The direction the world goes is entirely for Kyousuke to decide.
I think it’s less of an issue of “can they” but more of an issue of “do they want to”. Assuming that one needs total knowledge of the metaphysical world to change it; and assuming that only Kyousuke, Masato and Kengo possess that knowledge, then it would also make sense that yes, they can change the world. It ties in well to the argument earlier about how Kurugaya was able to change the world into a constant loop, but limited only to an extent (ergo, the extent of her knowledge of the dream world). So why didn’t Kengo nor Masato ever do anything about it?
I theorize it’s because they never really had the desire to do so. Masato was neutral all throughout, simply observing how Kyousuke’s plan would pan out. He would have had absolutely no reason to change the world except perhaps during refrain, when he was haunted by the army of Masatos (at which point, I don’t think he had the stable mental capability to do so anymore).
Kengo, on the other hand, didn’t wish to change the dream world because, well, he didn’t even want the dream world in the first place. He was clinging on to the hope that Riki and Rin didn’t need to change because he believed that he could save everyone (or, perhaps, forced himself to believe he was capable of saving everyone as a means of validation after not being able to save Miyuki). As such, he did not want to change the world as he did not want to change Riki nor Rin; he just wanted everyone out of it. But the power of the dream world was too strong: in order to destroy it, he not only had to battle Kyousuke’s will, but also Komari’s, Kurugaya’s, Kud’s, Haruka’s, and Mio’s. I wouldn’t be surprised if he actually tried, but it seems to me like it’s an undertaking that not even Kyousuke would have been able to handle at that point.
That assumption was never made. Rather, it was the speculation on what allows these people to retain said memories to begin with. That speculation resulted in the conclusion that it must be a mixture of both one’s will and one’s love for both Riki and Rin.
I still maintain Kyousuke held the position of “god” for a very good reason. While your interpretation was an interesting aspect I had not thought of, I still do not think it follows through. First and foremost, why wouldn’t they want to make any changes themselves? Your earlier argument of Masato not wanting to change the world:
Masato was never smart to begin with, let’s be fair. He would not have had the mental fortitude in order to maintain the cohesion the world required, let alone being able to alter it at will.
So with that said, what about Kengo? He’s obviously capable of being able to change the world. If that’s the case, why couldn’t he? Especially if you believed that:
Frankly, this doesn’t make sense, at all. There was no indication in the novel, from what I can recall, where Kengo believes he can still save Riki and Rin in the real world. Nor were there any indications that he did not want anyone else but the original Little Busters cast in there.
If anything, he wanted the dream world to stay around. He felt that Riki and Rin did not need to grow up, but rather, hide in this paradise everyone had created. In reality, Kengo was selfish and wanted to spend the time they were able to make in the world with Riki and Rin forever. The thought of death was emotionally debilitating as it meant he would never be able to see any of his friends ever again.
Also, the notion of:
doesn’t make very much sense either. In what way were the female cast actively (key word here) maintaining the world for Riki and Rin’s sake? While they may have helped create the dream world, they still were more fixated on their own burdens they were unable to resolve in the real world.
Kurugaya’s “burden”, however, was unique in the sense it came up in the dream world. Prior to this, she had never experienced the kind of closeness the cast of Little Busters had to offer. Let alone someone confronting their feelings to her. This inevitably prompted a very strong desire to keep the closeness she had experienced. Thus, the sub-loop.
Now you might ask: “If that’s the case, shouldn’t Kengo also be able to control the world like her?”
The answer to that would still remain: no.
When you continue reading into Kengo’s character, you find that he loves Riki and Rin to an almost childish level. He wants to spend his time with them forever. He knows what he’s doing is wrong but still wishes for that instead. Due to that internal conflict within himself along with the lack of resolve to help Riki and Rin eventually grow stronger, Kengo can not have the same god-like powers Kyousuke possesses.
Even if he may be able to exhibit some sort of control, it will inevitably end similarly to Kurugaya’s. If anyone, Kengo should know after having to see the world repeat over and over again.
In essence, to suggest both Masato and Kengo had “no desire to change the world” is to also suggest they don’t have any resolve either, which is obviously not the case. Let’s look at Kyousuke once more.
What do we know about Kyousuke? Never has it been hinted that Kyousuke is weak in any way. Never has it ever been hinted Kyousuke is incapable of doing anything. Instead, all we know is just how strong willed Kyousuke is. How loving Kyousuke is. How determined Kyousuke is, even if it means going against principles. The only time we ever see Kyousuke’s weak side is when the world is about to finally lose its cohesion, and that is when he finally broke tears. With a person who’s personality seems almost damn near unbreakable, someone who brought together the Little Busters himself, who better to be the god of the world than Kyousuke?
Well, I guess I messed up my interpretation there my fault for not having read the novel in 7 years and running solely on memory for here. BUT my point stands! Kengo did not want to change the world. Which answers:
Because, again, they didn’t want to. Masato had no intentions of changing Kyousuke’s plans, whereas Kengo didn’t want to change it at all.
Now moving on to why they wouldn’t/couldn’t change the dream world:
There are two arguments gong on here
Your argument: Masato and Kengo could not have changed the world because they do not have the mental fortitude to do so. This is due to the fact that their minds were clouded (either by their emotions or by sheer stupidity)
My argument: Masato and Kengo would not change the world because they have no reason for wanting to do so.
I’m not trying to say that you’re wrong in that their minds were clouded; what I’m saying is that that does not prove that they are incapable of changing the world. Frankly, we have no idea what is needed to control this dream world. What I’m trying to counter-argue is the assumption that because Masato and Kengo did not change the world, that automatically means they could not. The sentence I’m specifically targeting is:
Nowhere is it stated that they are unable to. It is possible they are unable; but it is also possible that they are able but simply choose not to. And it’s good to keep your mind open to either possibility.
If they truly are unable to (and you can show proof that they are unable to), then perhaps Kyousuke is the only god of the world. But if they are able to but choose not to then, well, maybe he isn’t.
Aside Kyousuke, I believe three girls showed the capacity to change elements of the world. The first is Kuruguya who prevents the world to reset.
The second is perhaps Kud. I do not remember all the details but at the end of her route, she seems to use the magic of world to escape from her chains.
The third is in the new bad end of Haruka, in the Extasy version. Kanata forcefully resets the world and tells to Riki to stop and run away with Rin.
See, I don’t attribute that to Kyousuke. I attribute that to Masato’s self doubt and his then refusal of said doubt. He’s uncertain of what path to take, so he defaults to his old cover-up to disguise his problems. That’s why everyone else becomes Masato and not someone else. They’re reflections of himself questioning an issue that he refuses to listen to.
What I’m saying is she has the same powers, but she doesn’t have the backing of everyone else. Kyousuke only appears god-like because he has both conviction and support. Yuiko only had conviction.
I disagree. They made the world so much as any other Little Buster did. They all came together. That’s why we see people like Futaki and A-chan in a more descriptive way than random students, because they were friends of the people creating the world.
It most certainly doesn’t. The world exists to grant wishes and help with regret, Riki and Rin’s prosperity just happens to be one of the wishes fueling the world.
Not really? Protecting and nurturing Riki and Rin until the fated day was always the world’s focus for everyone. It’s simply that the girls supported this goal by taking the opportunity to settle scores with their regrets, but those exact regrets were brought forward for the goal of ultimately making Riki grow by putting him in situations where he was the one to help others and not Kyousuke like he was always used to, and in turn allow him to support Rin who was also growing stronger - though not as much as Riki - thanks to her much more numerous relationships.
Kyousuke can’t take care of everything alone, and considering Riki’s weakness in the beginning, it makes sense he needed to confront people’s lives and problems to grow as a person.
You can’t really say the world was oriented towards granting wishes in general when the dream world ultimately didn’t achieve anything for the girls in the real world as far as fixing problems for good go: it just set the girls’ mind at ease before they passed on as they gave their hand in providing obstacles for the only two who were supposed to make it out of there to overcome before facing the real world with the concrete experience they’d gained from the dream world.
It’s unlikely the world would have ever happened had there not been this determination to protect Riki and Rin from despair, even though those exact same girls (save for Haruka, I guess) with the exact same regrets were there, so it feels odd at best that you’d think they’re not its main focus.
No, I actually agree with Taka on this one. The idea that all of the girls regrets were set up as hurdles for Riki to solve is absurd to me. These are a group of people who are about to die without having any of their regrets settled. It’s natural that they’d wish to satisfy their own regrets. I’d like to believe that this happened naturally, and that Riki saw it through to help these girls with their regrets through his own will, not by the machinations of Kyousuke.
“Oh, hey, I’ve got this friend and sister who have experienced depression/anxiety in the past and are probably going to think about killing themselves once we kick the bucket. Could I get some help in making sure it doesn’t come to that?”
“Sure, we can always settle some scores while we’re at it.”
“Alright, cheers.”
…or however it is that rippling souls communicate with each other.
Of course, this entire plan relies on Riki’s kindness and will to help others, that definitely wasn’t constructed by Kyousuke. But the actual world’s mechanisms are focused on Rin and Riki is what I’m saying, they’re not “part” of what it aims to achieve. Simply that it also solved the girls’ problems while it had its opportunity.
I’ve always seen it like Natsume is describing it. Maybe I’m being hopelessly idealistic but I believe if a group of people knew they were going to die in an accident but there was a chance that two of them would be able to survive it they’d do what they can to make sure they do so it feels like their deaths were less in vain. And they would get to put their minds at ease along the way.
…Yes, but I don’t think people who are on the verge of death anyway make that much difference between morals in the first place, especially not with how desperate Kyousuke can act when left with literally no other choices.
I don’t think it’s nearly that well planned out or anything. The girls’ regrets manifest themselves in the world whether they want them to or not, and Kyousuke is good at making the best out of such situations to hit two birds with one stone.
my fault for not having read the novel in 7 years and running solely on memory for here. BUT my point stands! Kengo did not want to change the world. Which answers: