Little Busters! - Refrain Arc Discussion

[Pepe]

Saving everyone was impossible precisely because, if Riki stayed behind, his fear of loss would trigger his narcolepsy, thus knocking him out and Rin would be too shaken up to be of any help.

This statement is the most powerful part of your post, I feel. It is something that I think many people neglect and I myself was only reminded of it when you said it.

As for the point, well… I feel it all boils down to personal preference. Do we want a stronger Riki, or a more realistic Riki? Do we like seeing stories that show characters overcome trials and getting stronger, or do we like seeing stories that point out the flaws in humanity?

I, honestly, am not one to judge based on the illogical turn-of-events in a primarily emotionally-driven story. Heck, I am admittedly guilty of the “makes me cry = quality work” fallacy.

[Bizkitdoh]

“It’s enough.”

Really though, there’s value in both endings. You can accept both. I mean, it was a fakeout for a reason- Because the weight of that experience is shown to you for it to take full effect and make the happier ending so much more relieving and heartwarming.

You have a much warmer impression when you go true end, and you have an extremely powerful message with the normal end- And the best part is you get both in the true end really. True end is like icing on the cake to me, personally. It could have been presented much better. If the anime included the fakout- It combined could have been the most perfect presentation.

Anyways yeah I don’t think there’s wrong in seeing appeal in the dark end. It’s a rather strong statement.

[EisenKoubu]

Welp, I officially love Little Busters now.

When I went into Refrain, I was expecting something epic, something that would bring new meaning to friendship and make me enjoy the characters a lot more than I already have. Every expectation I had for Refrain was completely obliterated, both to the story’s benefit and detriment.

I was, truthfully, not expecting Maeda to pull an Endless Eight and rehash parts of the common route to show how the world was restarting. In fact, it actually justifies the branching paths of the visual novel, as each end canonically resets at a certain point. Rin is supposed to be the ‘canon girl’ in this case, since Refrain has a huge focus on her. However, I can easily disprove that she is so, because they never do get together romantically, and their relationship is instead treated as ‘sibling-like’.

Major themes found in Refrain is the need for identity, individuality and expression, as well as personal growth. For example, Riki believes that the only way for him to regroup the Little Busters is become like Kyousuke, but Kengo tells him that it would only lead to an undesired path. What I got out of it was that Riki does not need to become Kyousuke in order to regroup the team, or else he would not be Riki. Kyousuke even points out that the reason he formed the baseball team was to fulfill his own desire for identity and expression. Riki must instead become a stronger person by taking on the responsibility of the team’s leader, and help each of the members grow and understand one another.

Now, as exceptionally meaningful and tightly-written as Refrain is, it is not flawless. Maeda did not stop at rehashing parts of the common route, he decided to unnecessarily repeat lines that I heard five minutes ago, just in case I did not get it the first time. These sections, particularly Kengo’s, became rather boring as a result. Some parts benefit from alternate retellings of these repeated lines, such as Masato’s and Kyousuke’s (to an extent) backstories. However, they really just serve to bore me when it should be getting a move on.

Now, I know what a lot of you are asking: Did Refrain make me cry? Well, out of the many scenes where any emotional person would have cried, I can safely say that I did not cry at any of them. I came pretty close, though. Playing through the route all night long instead of sleeping like I should has probably affected that as well, since I was more bored than emotionally drained.

There’s probably a lot about Refrain I still do not understand at the moment, but what can I say? I’m too tired to talk anymore about it, anyways. Maybe when I read this again, I will come up with a lot more to talk about, especially when the eventual Bookclub starts. In the meantime, I would like to close by saying that I am so glad I read Little Busters! when I did. It is an enjoyable read from start to finish, is incredibly satisfying to read, and, while it has its flaws, it is an amazing experience that every Key fan should read. I am thankful for the people who have recommended Little Busters! to me, and I am very grateful to be in such a joyous, passionate, and friendly community that supports visual novels like these. You guys are awesome. Also, a very special thanks to @yerian98 for advice on route order.

Now if you’ll excuse me, I need to get some well-deserved sleep. :3

[Pepe]

Welp, I officially love Little Busters now.

Welcome to the cluuuuub~

In fact, it actually justifies the branching paths of the visual novel

Yeah definitely, and that seems to be a thing that is happening with a lot more visual novels recently. I won’t say which ones because [spoiler] but yeah. And I really love it when they do this because it gives more meaing to the Visual novel medium as a whole.

Rin is supposed to be the ‘canon girl’ in this case

she never is and never will be

But yeah, Refrain is definitely amazing. No, it is not flawless, but it makes Little Busters the truly amazing visual novel that it is. I will admit, I did, technically, cry at refrain. But it wasn’t the bawl-my-eyes-out rendering me incapable of thinking for a good few minutes kind of cry that happened to me in Clannad and others; it was a more melancholic, tears streaming down my face kind of thing. Would they really be separated forever? Will we no longer be able to go and have fun with the rest of the team?
So when Kyousuke asks “Was it enough” then heck no, it wasn’t enough! So despite the ending being somewhat hard to grasp, it was something I, in the end, fully appreciated.

[Yerian]

So glad you enjoyed it so much

[quote=“EisenKoubu, post:109, topic:203”]
Also, a very special thanks to @yerian98 for advice on route order.
[/quote]Your very welcome. Always happy to help.

[quote=“EisenKoubu, post:109, topic:203”]
Maybe when I read this again
[/quote]I need to reread it as well. I have a bunch of thoughts that I havent posted yet because I need to remind myself of everything that happened an in what order it occurred.

[quote=“EisenKoubu, post:109, topic:203”]
Did Refrain make me cry? Well, out of the many scenes where any emotional person would have cried, I can safely say that I did not cry at any of them. I came pretty close, though.
[/quote]o_o Im still crying ;_;

[quote=“EisenKoubu, post:109, topic:203”]
Rin is supposed to be the ‘canon girl’ in this case, since Refrain has a huge focus on her. However, I can easily disprove that she is so, because they never do get together romantically
[/quote]Im not sure there actually needs to be a “canon-girl” of Little Busters!. In the end Rin even basically says that she could see Riki being with any of the girls. And I really think Little Busters is more about friendship than romance anyway. Like, I honestly dont even care about the romance in the story. The friendship and other themes that go along with that was just so much more potent, so much more enjoyable, hell, even so much more relatable. Which I guess is why I ship Rin with Riki: because their the best of friends!

[Takafumi]

is Komari aware of the secret of the world?

All of the heroines are. How much they remember at specific points is questionable, but by the end of each route every heroine remembers the secret of the world. I imagine their memories were tampered with to keep the validity of the routes in check. Nobody had to tell them about it. They already knew.

Don’t listen to this “previous loops” fanfic.

In Kyousuke’s chapter of Refrain, he says he cant count the number of times it’s repeated, and while I’ve never experienced such thing, I wouldnt think that 7 times (he thinks this at the beginning of Rin2 IIRC) would be so many that you would lose count.

There are more than 7 outcomes in the VN, so we already know there are more loops.

[Yerian]

by the end of each route

This is the important part. Because it doesnt really make sense to me that all of them knew before the end of their route (see Haruka and Kud). Mio, Komari, and Yuiko show signs of realizing it, at least part of it, before, although, Mio doesnt seem to necessarily get the point of the secret.

Yuiko seems to realize it (or at least bring it up) only during her route, which is part of my theory that Kyousuke specifically talked to her about it. The other evidence for that theory being that she uses the analogy of the gears to reference the secret of the world. There seems to be a “gear” reference in every route (I can’t remember them all, it’d be great if someone else does), but the only other person who uses the gears to reference the secret of the world is Kyousuke during Refrain.

Now this leaves the problem of “why do they all act exactly the same after you’ve finished their routes, if they now know the secret of the world”?" The only thing I can think of is maybe they disappear and become kind of NPCs after their regrets are gone. This would actually explain other things, like why each route becomes locked after you complete it, except for Komari’s route, who we know had a second wish and a reason to stick around, to the very end in fact.

[Takafumi]

This is the important part. Because it doesnt really make sense to me that all of them knew before the end of their route

They did know before the end of their route. They knew after the end of their route. They just didn’t know during their route.
Memories can be removed by those in control of the world, as seen in a bunch of routes.
There is always a point of realization, usually in the final scenes of the route. It’s even more blatant in EX.

Now this leaves the problem of “why do they all act exactly the same after you’ve finished their routes, if they now know the secret of the world”?"

Because they knew every other time. We know that Masato kept up an act every single time. We know that, from the earliest route we see, Kengo disagrees with what Kyousuke is doing. Eventually this changes and Kengo gets involved.
The guys are aware of the secret.
We know that sometimes Riki hits a bad end. We know that sometimes Rin loses to Sasami, or the mysterious creatures. We know that sometimes Mio gets crazy weaponry. Sometimes they win a baseball match, and sometimes they lose.
What we don’t know, is if the heroines are also keeping up an act during the routes we see, or if their memories have been tampered with.

The only thing I can think of is maybe they disappear and become kind of NPCs after their regrets are gone

They require a regret to keep in control of the world. Every time a character manipulated the world, it was due to their regret. After this point we never see the character control the fake world… However they don’t wake up in reality, so they are still in the fake world.

Komari is an outlier. For one, she had multiple reasons to be in control of the world. Another is that she has control over her own memories. It can also be said that Komari’s regrets were never really bettered by Riki. It’s possible Refrain Rin was the real help for Komari. Also, if we go by what the anime showed, Kyousuke had recognized Komari’s wishes and kept her involved.

When a route gets going, and the other heroines start to disappear, they become observers. They can interact with each other, see what’s happening, but not get involved.

[Yerian]

They did know before the end of their route. They knew after the end of their route. They just didn’t know during their route.

Ok, good we pretty much agree then. But Mio has to know at least a part of it during her route because she knows the world is one that grants wishes. As I said she just doesnt understand why. Yuiko as well speaks to the same thing, and because of the gear analogy and the fact that Kyousuke shows that he’s pretty interested in her, I made a guess that he talked to her about it.

Memories can be removed by those in control of the world, as seen in a bunch of routes.

Look, I can’t speak to EX, but I really have no idea what you’re referring to. Who had their memories tampered with? I just dont see any evidence of this.

The guys are aware of the secret.

Yes, I was speaking only to the girls. It is very clear that the guys know it the whole time. Part of whats so amazing about them is that they were able to hold it in for so long, acting normal the whole time, just for Riki and Rin.
But I don’t think that many of the other girls, especially ones like Haruka and Kud, would have the same strength.

They require a regret to keep in control of the world. Every time a character manipulated the world, it was due to their regret. After this point we never see the character control the fake world… However they don’t wake up in reality, so they are still in the fake world.

Right, but by Refrain, everyone else but Komari and the boys are gone, because the world is already starting to fall apart when they part. Hell, by Rin2 its showing signs of falling apart, based on Kyousuke’s comment during his episode in Refrain that “he’s never seen the gears this much out of whack before.” He of course blames himself for this, and I’m not denying that pushing Rin too far was part of it. (Hey @Pepe, the fact that the gears are messed up in Yuiko’s route too could be another good reason to put it last.)

So basically what I’m trying to say is, if not at the end of their routes, then when?

Komari is an outlier. For one, she had multiple reasons to be in control of the world. Another is that she has control over her own memories. It can also be said that Komari’s regrets were never really bettered by Riki. It’s possible Refrain Rin was the real help for Komari. Also, if we go by what the anime showed, Kyousuke had recognized Komari’s wishes and kept her involved.

Yes yes yes, I agree with all of this. Sorry for not making it clear that every bit of this is what I meant myself.

[Takafumi]

Who had their memories tampered with? I just dont see any evidence of this.

Almost everyone. It’s practically one of the main plot points of the VN. Riki and Rin. Yuiko’s route. Mio’s route. Kud’s route. Rin1 into Rin2 into Refrain.
You think Riki and Rin just forgot every loop? Everyone just forgot about Love Love Hunters? Everyone just forgot Mio? Kud just forgot about the coming conflict in Tebwa?

Even beyond the memory thing, we know that the one who becomes the focus gains the most control over the world out of the people sustaining it.

Right, but by Refrain, everyone else but Komari and the boys are gone

We don’t know that they were gone. We know that they weren’t present. We know that they weren’t awake in reality.
They aren’t capable of sustaining the world, but that’s because they don’t have the large amount of regrets they once had to keep it going.

So basically what I’m trying to say is, if not at the end of their routes, then when?

When the world actually ends. When it isn’t needed anymore. The world “ends” after the broment in Refrain, but it keeps going because Riki has the regret of his narcolepsy and Rin regrets not being able to make friends. Kyousuke even makes his presence as an observer clear when he calls out to Riki after the failed attempt at dealing with the bus crash.

Whether the world ever ends is debatable, but I believe it ends after Riki faces his past trauma and Rin remembers her friendships.

[Yerian]

You think Riki and Rin just forgot every loop? Everyone just forgot about Love Love Hunters? Everyone just forgot Mio? Kud just forgot about the coming conflict in Tebwa?

I’m convinced that anyone who doesn’t know the secret of the world doesn’t remember the previous loop.

I guess I might have to give you Mio; but to me that doesnt feel like so grade a scale, because Midori, looking just like Mio, and Riki being the only one who saw them switch, could very easliy just take Mio’s place.

Even beyond the memory thing, we know that the one who becomes the focus gains the most control over the world out of the people sustaining it.

I dont really see evidence for this. Just like in any VN, just because the protag stops focusing on the rest doesnt mean they all just dont do anything. I guess I think the the girls left over just play out similar to how they did the very first time, in the real world.

We don’t know that they were gone. We know that they weren’t present. We know that they weren’t awake in reality.

Not necessarily. Remember, Kyousuke (at least during Refrain, we don’t know if it ever happened to him before that) kept waking up back in the real world. And since Riki and Rin are the only ones who were supposed to be able to survive, they could have “woken up” in the real world and not been able to do anything. And since time basically doesn’t exist in “the World Where Nothing Happened”, they would actually all be waking up at the same time as Riki and Rin do, when the world “ends.”

Another possibility is they exist in some kind of limbo, technically in neither world. Like where Riki is when he “goes back to the beginning” and overcomes his narcolepsy.

[Pepe]

Even beyond the memory thing, we know that the one who becomes the focus gains the most control over the world out of the people sustaining it.

Woah okay that’s one of those things that I never thought of before, but now that you mention it, it makes 100% perfect sense!

Almost everyone. It’s practically one of the main plot points of the VN.

Yeah, I do kind of agree that not all the girls entirely remember everything that happens. This is just an opinion, and I don’t have any proof regarding this, but I feel that all the girls have this idea that they are in this world to solve their issues. They may or may not remember the bus crash, they probably don’t remember what happened in the previous routes, but they do know that they are there for a purpose. The only exception, of course, being Riki and Rin. Maybe their memories were manipulated by Kyousuke to make the plan more perfect? Maybe they simply couldn’t handle that sort of memory. But it is what it is.

Oh but to continue on this:

It can also be said that Komari’s regrets were never really bettered by Riki. It’s possible Refrain Rin was the real help for Komari.

This is true but not in a literal sense. Her regrets over having PTSD were solved by Riki, I’m confident about that. The thing is, while she was in this world, she developed a new regret. Her regret was that Rin specifically had to become a better person if she were to survive the aftermath. Her regret became exactly the same as that of Kyousuke (yes that was Kyousuke’s entire regret). and that’s why they make such a good pairing

Now, that got me thinking of one main point that I haven’t thought about before: This entire dream world is fueled by regrets. I may be silly for only realizing this now (how Riki was able to revive the dream world by saying “it isn’t enough” is additional proof of this) but it gets me thinking…

Right, but by Refrain, everyone else but Komari and the boys are gone, because the world is already starting to fall apart when they part. Hell, by Rin2 its showing signs of falling apart, based on Kyousuke’s comment during his episode in Refrain that “he’s never seen the gears this much out of whack before.” He of course blames himself for this, and I’m not denying that pushing Rin too far was part of it. (Hey @Pepe, the fact that the gears are messed up in Yuiko’s route too could be another good reason to put it last.)

If the world is fueled by regrets: Then why? Why is it falling apart? If anything, it should be growing stronger, because Riki is slowly getting closer and closer to Kyousuke’s goal. Of course the obvious explanation is that Kyousuke’s physical energy is draining, but there’s more to that, I think:

1. As more and more girls leave, the world gets weaker and weaker. This is because there are less and less regrets fueling the world.
2. Kyousuke losing more and more hope, especially after Rin2 and Refrain. The way I see it, if he has no hope, he think nothing can be done about it. That way it becomes less of a regret and more something he couldn’t change. Which is why the world was getting so weak in Refrain.
3. This is one thing I realized about Yuiko’s route just now: Why do the gears get all crazy in her route? I think I can attribute that to Kyousuke. Kyousuke is arguably the strongest driving force of regret in the world. But, as he observes Riki and Yuiko getting closer and closer, and falling more in more in love with each other, he starts to lose hope over his entire plan for Rin, because that plan relies on Riki and Rin getting together. Which is why he starts to intervene: because if they fall truly and madly in love with each other, then those feelings in Riki’s heart won’t simply go away. They will linger there, no matter how many times the world resets. So Kyousuke cuts Yuiko’s route short and interferes because what is happening is interfering with his plans.

tl;dr Kyousuke doesn’t want Riki and Yuiko’s true love to blossom ;_; what an ass

[Misuzu]

Not quoting the whole thing but there is some excellent thoughts posted here
And in many of the prior posts too
Lots of things I hadn’t thought of on my own before so thank you all for sharing your thoughts and ideas

[Naoki_Saten]

This is one thing I realized about Yuiko’s route just now: Why do the gears get all crazy in her route? I think I can attribute that to Kyousuke. Kyousuke is arguably the strongest driving force of regret in the world. But, as he observes Riki and Yuiko getting closer and closer, and falling more in more in love with each other, he starts to lose hope over his entire plan for Rin, because that plan relies on Riki and Rin getting together. Which is why he starts to intervene: because if they fall truly and madly in love with each other, then those feelings in Riki’s heart won’t simply go away. They will linger there, no matter how many times the world resets. So Kyousuke cuts Yuiko’s route short and interferes because what is happening is interfering with his plans.

I don’t think that Kyousuke had tampered with the world just to get Yuiko and Riki apart. He would’ve interfered with the other routes for the same reason, but he didn’t. I think the whole thing was much simpler:

Within the game, the a heck of a lot of time passed until Riki and Yuiko actually started going out. First, there was the whole bullying thing. Then there was the day when Yuiko nursed Riki after a narcolepsy attack and he fell for her. Then there were several days of Kyousuke and the other bros not being helpfull at all with their romantic advice. Going out for a tea. Several other attempts by Riki to win over Yuiko. Confession. Rejection. Bold second confession and confrontation. I believe that by the time the two of them became lovey-dovey, the day of the field was already getting near. Then the thing happened: Yuiko didn’t want her time with Riki to end. She didn’t want to leave the world and let the reset happen. So she just opposed the world and made the day before the field trip loop infinitely, so that the day of the field trip, and with that, the reset wouldn’t happen. Kyousuke anticipated that. He knew that Yuiko is actually the weakest among the girls and that she might try to keep Riki for herself, which is exactly what happened. However, Yuiko couldn’t completely stop the world from moving on, so the reset started happening anyway, though much slower.

Actually, we could check that just by taking a look at the dates of the looping day in Yuiko’s route and the day of the field trip. Does anyone remember those?

PS: A similar thing happens in the bad end of Mio’s route. If you choose Midori over Mio, Riki will just spend his whole time with Midori (I think he mentions that a lot of time passes) and then Midori will disappear one morning. I believe that morning to be on the day of the field trip, thus the moment when the world resets.

[Takafumi]

I don’t think that Kyousuke had tampered with the world just to get Yuiko and Riki apart.

I think Kyousuke gets attributed to a lot more than he should. He’s like a scapegoat for people who try to explain the world.

Kyousuke anticipated that.

Is this mentioned during that monologue in Episode:Kyousuke or something similar? My memory of Litbus isn’t great…

Actually, we could check that just by taking a look at the dates of the looping day in Yuiko’s route and the day of the field trip. Does anyone remember those?

June 20 for Yuiko. Was the field trip date mentioned?

[Naoki_Saten]

Is this mentioned during that monologue in Episode:Kyousuke or something similar? My memory of Litbus isn’t great…

Actually, we could check that just by taking a look at the dates of the looping day in Yuiko’s route and the day of the field trip. Does anyone remember those?

June 20 for Yuiko. Was the field trip date mentioned?

I vaguely remember Kyousuke saying something about Yuiko being weak. I believe that it happened sometime during Yuiko’s route, but I can’t seem to find that moment by browsing through the route.

I did notice something different though. After Riki got rejected, Kyousuke was indirectly telling him to give up, while Kengo kept encouraging him and tried to get the boys to keep helping him…

[Takafumi]

[quote=“Naoki_Saten, post:122, topic:203”]
I vaguely remember Kyousuke saying something about Yuiko being weak. I believe that it happened sometime during Yuiko’s route, but I can’t seem to find that moment by browsing through the route.
[/quote]The only thing I remember in relation to characters’ impressions of her route is that she was the only character who didn’t seem cheerful after it was all over.

After Riki got rejected, Kyousuke was indirectly telling him to give up, while Kengo kept encouraging him and tried to get the boys to keep helping him…

Difference in motives~ Kyousuke just wants to clear the regrets and get Riki to move forward. Kengo just wants to see Riki happy. They are like the two extremes of parenting. One is too forceful, and the other is too lax, but they balance each other out.

Basically, Kyousuke x Kengo

[Misuzu]

June 20 for Yuiko. Was the field trip date mentioned?

From the anime the field trip is on June 21 and Yuiko’s route repeats the 20th in the VN

[Pepe]

I believe that by the time the two of them became lovey-dovey, the day of the field was already getting near.

Hm, I seem to have forgotten that there was a time limit to all the routes.
But wait, wasn’t Kud’s route much longer than the field trip? Didn’t she stay a few months in Tevua before returning?
I am confuzzled

I think Kyousuke gets attributed to a lot more than he should. He’s like a scapegoat for people who try to explain the world.

He is the main proponent, after all.

After Riki got rejected, Kyousuke was indirectly telling him to give up, while Kengo kept encouraging him and tried to get the boys to keep helping him…

Nice observation! It’s those little things that he does that we can never neglect how Kengo cares about the group and Riki.

[EisenKoubu]

[quote=“Pepe, post:125, topic:203”]
But wait, wasn’t Kud’s route much longer than the field trip? Didn’t she stay a few months in Tevua before returning?I am confuzzled
[/quote]You have to keep in mind that Refrain continues under the assumption that Riki fell for Rin and not any of the other girls. Not only that, you’re talking about Kud’s route, which is not the most tightly-written of the routes. Kud should either be dead or in traumatic shock depending on her decision to return or not, and that’s assuming Kud Wafter is not canon. XP