Little Busters! - Refrain Arc Discussion

Key Discussion
#305

Well yes, that’s what happened in the “It’s not enough” ending, but we’re arguing about before that, at the time of the choice between “It’s enough” and “It’s not enough”. Look, in the “It’s enough” ending it’s not cured via the dream world magic like in the “It’s not enough” ending, and there’s no real explanation for it medically, so if it were to be cured, they would need to explain it. What is there to take issue with there? It’s not a big deal, but I see no basis for claiming that Riki would have gotten over his narcolepsy in the “It’s enough” ending. I guess you can claim that the narcolepsy in LB! is different from the real world narcolepsy, fine. But I’m not satisfied with that, since they used a real world disorder and gave us no real reason to think it was different, I think they would have to abide by its limitations.

That’s why I’m asking how much was he behind. You seem to think I’m arguing that he was behind everything when I’m not. I’m just pondering how much he is behind.

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#306

That’s a bold assumption to make.

I don’t disagree in any way. I believe that in reality it is self-induced, however within the dream world it can also be triggered by any of the dreamers. Obviously Yuiko’s route is the most obvious example of this, but it is apparent throughout.

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#307

The message of the VN isn’t the one of the “true route”. Messages aren’t absolute, they depend on the reader and their interpretation of the work. I’m complaining about how explaining things medically brings nothing new to the table, and urged you to explain if it actually fid otherwise. I mean that’s what my first post today was about. I don’t see how the VN corroborates your position (not sure what position you’re talking about anyway), and even if it did, how that renders other messages the VN can offer useless.

The reason my hypothetical situatuon adds value to the discussion is because that ending emphasizes a similar, but different message than the “true end” as explained in that post from early this year. In fact, my whole post addressed different problems to how characters reacted in certain situations and how those are linked to a message of friendship at least as good as what’s regarded as the “true ending”, but let’s keep this last thing’s discussion for another time.

On to your last paragraph,

And it is. My whole point is medical reality in our world isn’t the same as the one in LB’s reality. In LBs reality a trauma causes the narcolepsy, triggers it or whatever you want, and without the trauma, it disappears. As you said:

Whether that’s good or bad writing is something I won’t barge into. My problems with narcolepsy were already stated before in that post from January, and are more related to pacing that anything else.

No. Please tell me what makes you think so. Remember the dream worlds can’t affect reality in a physical world by definition. They are alternate realities after all, the only effect they can have is altering people’s minds. Riki gets in a dream world where he thinks about his life, his friends… And gets over his trauma with his parents. Just like taka said, at that point Riki gets cured of his narcolepsy because he no longer needs a coping method. The dream world cures the trauma, which is a psychological problem, not the narcolepsy, which is a physical one.

And so far what I’ve accomplished is falling into your trap and arguing over pretty useless stuff. What intrigues me the most is. Appart from good or bad writing, what does analyzing the physical details of narcolepsy bring to the table?

I get the feeling that you’re stuck with that its enough vs not enough thing while I’m addressing a more meta side of analyzing VNs. Back then, I explained why I saw the its enough as a better choice message-wise, but I fully understand why people can think otherwise, so I get your stance on that issue. Like I’ve already said waaay to many times now, whar interests me is why you brought such specific medical concerns appart from writing quality reasons.

PD: sorry about the typos, writing on mobile isn’t easy

I meant his narcolepsy stays cured (or its trigger, whatever) even outside the dream world. I might have worded it badly.

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#308

These two parts are linked. My position that the “magic” of the dream world is capable of curing his narcolepsy, even though it’s not medically different from real narcolepsy, is corroborated by the VN itself because the dream world magic does in fact cure it. And as for the dream world not being able to physically affect reality, we don’t even really know that for sure. That’s an assumption we’ve made, and the exact nature of the dream world down to its finest details is unknown to us. You can’t really say “the magic can’t do that” when in the VN itself, the magic DID do that. That’s what I was talking about with my point being corroborated by the VN itself.

It wasn’t my intention for this to be a trap or for the argument to drag out like this. Your position seemed inconsistent with the facts to me, so I pointed it out, that’s all. If I had known you were arguing under the premise that narcolepsy works differently in LB! than in reality, I wouldn’t have. Even though I disagree with that premise, it is a consistent position now that I know that.

Again, for me it would be a problem with writing quality if the “It’s enough” ending continued and his narcolepsy was cured without a medical explanation. The “It’s not enough” has a supernatural explanation for it being cured, but the “It’s enough” ending eschews that, so I wouldn’t really be able to accept it if they didn’t offer a scientific/medical explanation of some sort, which they can’t really do because there isn’t one. There’s no natural explanation, and they’ve eschewed the supernatural explanation, so I don’t see how it could be cured at all in the “It’s enough” ending. That’s my gripe with that hypothetical.

And lastly, this is not true at all. If anything, I’ve actually moved more towards the “It’s enough” side of things since our original conversation about this a few months back. If I had to say, I’m probably a bit too hung up on the technical/scientific side of the discussion over what works best with the narrative, but I can’t really help that, being a scientifically-minded person.

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#309

Currently watching the anime and I just felt the need to talk about it again and say how damn good this route was after finishing episode 11. Even though I’ve already read that scene of Kyousuke saying goodbye and crying that it’s more painful for him because he loves Riki and Rin more than they love him, and even though I already know he’ll be saved I couldn’t help but cry, like a damn LOT. Weirdly I ended up crying even more so than when I originally read it and for that I love Refrain and (platonically) Kyousuke.

#310
#311

While I do not think that the choice to save the rest of the Little Busters is a poorly written one, I do think that the choice to accept their passing is a stronger one given the ideas the story is built on. A bittersweet ending that tests the characters ability to live life held high with the memory of their friends in their hearts speaks to me much more, especially given the nature of the story itself being about coping with loss. As you say, I do believe they justify the happy ending well enough. But The other ending is more internally consistent with itself and would have made for a more poignant ending in my book.

Perhaps then it would have been more in the vain of AIR’s ending, :eyes:

Stay golden, though <3

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#312

A lot of talk has been had about the “It’s enough” vs the “it’s not enough” choice and much of it has boiled down to whether or not it would have been better for the rest of the cast to be saved, or if Riki and Rin should have learned to accept their passing after the accident.

If I may, I’d like to explore this from a different angle.
By the time Riki and Rin were left in that hypothetical hospital bed, one thing is for sure. At that point, Riki has grown immensely. He was able to bring back the Little Busters, and has improved to the point of becoming like Kyousuke. I don’t doubt for any second that, at that point in time, Riki would be strong enough to accept their death and move on. He would be able to live life without the Little Busters and help lead and protect Rin after all that.

But what about Rin?
Would she be able to accept their death?
Would she be able to continue living life, knowing that her brother and her friends are gone?

Considering her reaction to Masato and Kengo disappearing during the baseball game was complete obliviousness, I would wager that, no, she would not. What would happen, if you claimed it to be enough, is that Rin would tag along Riki her entire life, the same way she tagged along behing Kyousuke in her early life. She would be completely dependent on him, totally incapable of becoming an independent human being, perhaps remaining that way until the end of her life.

And, I have to ask you: Is that enough? Is it enough to leave Rin like that? Is it enough to leave everything that Kyousuke hoped for unfinished?

Whether or not you believe that, I won’t judge you. But from me, that is a resounding “No, it’s not enough”.
Immediately after you decide that “It’s not enough” we are brought to Episode: Rin. And one thing I’ve learned during my re-read of this story is that episode Rin is extremely important to her growth.

So, in summary, the angle I’d like to present here is that the “It’s not enough” choice isn’t to save the rest of the Little Busters; It’s to invoke Episode: Rin. And a huge argument can be made that Episode: Rin is at least half of what contributes to saving the Little Busters to begin with. (the other half being Riki’s narcolepsy issue)

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#313

But what about Rin?

This is the big one for me and one of the biggest reasons why I feel the “it’s not enough” ending is more strongly supported by the narrative (effectively making it the superior ending in every regard for me, and I’m normally someone who strongly prefers endings that are… less than perfect, especially given my tendency to analyze and overanalyze).

The “it’s enough” ending merely builds Riki up, as you said. It’s clear that Rin isn’t completely ready yet. I think the biggest counter to your argument is that yeah, that’s the whole point of it being enough - you’ve got all the time in the world, you just need to get to the start line. It’s not about having infinite strength, because if it was, Kyousuke would never have succeeded. Rin just needs enough strength to make it through this in one piece, and she’s got plenty of time on her hands to keep growing after that alongside Riki. The problem with that counter isn’t that it’s very difficult to judge how much is enough (aka Kyousuke’s failure in Rin2)… it’s that it flies in the face of Riki’s own development. He’s his own person, after all. That’s why he’s able to triumph against his obstacles in Refrain and bring Masato and Kengo back into the fold - he does what Kyousuke did, but he does it his way, with Rin, which allows him to do something that legitimizes him and the story as a whole more than anything else ever could: surpass Kyousuke.

Riki and Rin may be similar to one another (hence their exceptional chemistry), but they’re both also incomplete without the other, and none of the other members are complete without Riki and Rin’s contributions (as shown via Komari’s final story with the boy, the girl and the dwarfs), which is why I also feel the “it’s not enough” ending is stronger from a writing standpoint, as the other one leaves Rin as a mere plot device and discards the strength each of the other characters have gained all throughout.

Episode: Rin is masterful in a lot of ways. I could go on and on about it. It’s what made me see LB! as the magnum opus that it really is, and it fills the biggest hole that I thought LB! would have in the end by permanently solidifying Rin both as a character and as a member of the cast.

(Coincidentally, my start line quote / potential counterargument is also why I feel very strongly about Riki x Rin, unlike seemingly most people here, but I’ll save that for a different post. And damn, do the forums really mark post edits as activity on the frontpage? That’s a bit unfortunate considering all I did just now was change a word… and then write this after realizing it.)

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#314

I feel like this way of looking at the ending comes from all the worst aspects of Rin2 and Refrain. Namely, the treatment of Rin’s character. Had Rin2 actually been about Rin, and had Refrain respected her agency, this probably wouldn’t be an issue. They could probably have even integrated a slightly different version of the roof scene between Komari and Rin in Episode: Rin into the boys’ farewell to keep the emotional release factor for Rin.
To look at it cynically, I might even say that the removal of Rin’s agency earlier in the story was a pre-justification for the “It’s not enough” ending, hence Episode: Rin.

On the other hand, looking at it this way, this wouldn’t have been as good a set-up for the “It’s not enough” ending. The way Little Busters is actually written, it’s hard to deny a lack of respect for Rin’s character in the “It’s enough” ending, but I feel that had “It’s enough” been canon, Rin would have received much better treatment in Rin2 and Refrain. (It’s actually one of the reasons I’ve moved to the “It’s enough” side over time.)

Rin might have actually been the reason why it had to be one ending or the other. Because for each ending to be as powerful as it could be requires different treatments of Rin’s character in Rin2 and Refrain.

If you support the “It’s enough” ending, I think you should recognise that it may be the reason Rin2 and early Refrain were written the way they were in regards to Rin. On the other hand, if you support the “It’s enough” ending as it exists, you probably have to admit that it completely mistreats Rin’s character.

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#315

I’m a bit torn on what to think of this as well. I know nothing about the development process of LB!, especially since I only went through Refrain a couple of days ago, but it certainly does feel as though the “it’s enough” ending was intended to be the original one.

I’m not sure if they really did write or even rewrite elements of the story specifically to account for the “it’s not enough” ending though. Given that Maeda largely repeats a big mistake he’d made before (the other members of the cast often not showing up in routes that weren’t theirs), almost through no fault of his own (can you really fully control what the other writers ultimately write about? if so, you might as well just write the stories yourself), my feeling was ultimately more that something was added to the events leading up to the “it’s not enough” ending, rather than something being taken away from the events leading up to the “it’s enough” ending just to strengthen the other one.

In fact, all the way to the end, I expected Maeda to only give her the “good enough” treatment, which would’ve made her a much more tragic character, but would’ve suited Kyousuke’s goals a lot better, so I was pleasantly surprised when I saw that the “it’s not enough” ending fought really hard to make up for that. That’s why, even if you’re right, I’m okay with it, because it makes Rin an infinitely better character and, through going beyond what Kyousuke had hoped for, it greatly strengthens Riki as a character as well. I wouldn’t think that if I didn’t also think that her ending up as a “good enough” plot device was the original canon goal.

There are big strengths to both endings and the way they were written. It’s just that I feel Maeda, for the most part, covered his tracks so very well with the buildup to the “it’s not enough” ending that I feel it overpowers that argument.

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#316

Oh I definitely agree with everything you’ve said right there. In a sense, I’m trying to justify Rin’s lack of agency in Rin2 and Refrain by saying it was necessary for Episode: Rin to have any meaning whatsoever. If she had any agency to begin with, its message would not have been as powerful, and there would be more justification for the “It’s enough” ending to be the better ending.

Very controversial opinion incoming here but if you read between the lines of what I’m trying to say, I am claiming that the reason why Rin had no agency during Rin2/Refrain was not because the story or the writers failed to showcase it. It’s because, at that point in time, she was useless as an independent human being. She had to be useless to grow, and she had to grow for everyone to be saved.

prepares to be mauled by a horde of Rin fans

#317

It’s because, at that point in time, she was useless as an independent human being.

Is that really controversial? I came out of the whole thing as a diehard Rin appreciator and that’s exactly the feeling I got from her all throughout, with it being completely intended.

Probably the only other thing I can think of is that Kyousuke only planned for her to grow enough (which means far less than it does for Riki due to her starting point being so much lower) and left everything beyond her survival up to Riki, which is what makes her final realization (and by extension the “it’s not enough” ending) so powerful as her finally becoming aware of how much she’s changed thanks to those around her allows her to exceed Kyousuke’s expectations and be a driving, equal factor in everyone’s salvation. In doing so, she both mirrors Riki and complements him at the same time.

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#318

From what we know about the earliest drafts of the story, Rin was described more similar to Kyousuke: an onee-san character who’d see Riki off in the end. (Maybe the idea was that all the things Kyousuke does would’ve been split between the two siblings?) The ending was then of course that everyone but Riki died. As far as we know, that would’ve just been it, though Tonokawa talks about the current “it’s enough” as quite benevolent in comparison to the earliest version. The game had like a more than 3 years long development time, so a lot of things obviously happened.

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#319

Ouch. I’ll be honest - I can’t think of much of a way to make that earliest idea work anywhere near as well as the two endings we got in the end, even accounting for potential major changes like Rin’s character and role being completely different. I guess that’s how drafts ultimately are, but damn, it’s a bit depressing to hear that they originally planned for it to be even more grim.

#320

I don’t know if I’m saying something obvious but I want to clarify this hahaha:

If I remember correctly that was something intended, the game suggests that every time you complete a route the heroine of that route disappears, that’s why there are a lot of scenes that you can only get if you complete the routes in a specific order.
That makes Komari’s farewell in Episode Rin even better, as she is the only girl that decided to wait until the very end. It is foreshadowed (eg: Kurugaya’s route, during the Love Love hunters, Rin can only find the girl’s that you have not helped yet, but she will always find Komari), that’s why I don’t think that it was an error hahaha.

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#321

Yep, originally when I first thought about what to reply with I included that, but forgot to add it back when I made huge changes prior to posting. It pretty much feels as though Maeda thought, “you know what? I’m actually going to roll with it and make it part of the story in a way that the other writers can easily work with as well”, and it works really really well.

And damn, I never actually noticed that bit in Kurugaya’s route, probably because I’ve only done it once and thought it was predetermined. Very nice touch.

#322

That certainly is an interesting angle from which to view Rin2 and Refrain. After reading through this part of the discussion, I think we can conclude that Komari is the secret MVP of Refrain.

Well, that has been said before, but what I’m referring to in this particular context of respecting one’s agency is that Komari was the only one who, throughout Rin2 and Refrain, has consistently treated Rin as an equal. Kyousuke wanted Rin to develop according to his design, Kengo wanted her to just sit there and let him protect her, Masato followed his policy of acting like he always did - which included never disclosing the truth - and even Riki gave up on expecting anything from her after realizing how immature she still was. But Komari talked to Rin properly, face to face. And in the end, although all of these people have loved Rin in their own way, Komari’s way of handling their relationship was the one to make the most impact. She was the last one to believe in Rin and she gave her the decisive push and the tools to make something happen - and that ended up making the difference between tragedy and miracle.

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#323

I just wish we could’ve seen this a bit more prior to that excellent scene with Komari and Rin. Yes, they do spend a lot of time together in the VN regardless, but that’s mostly just from a relative standpoint. The anime adaptation of Komari’s route at least does a great job of getting that off the ground. It’s one of the reasons I’m not a big fan of Maeda’s (perhaps Key’s as a whole) tendency to not show other characters much in routes that aren’t their own or the main one.

I wouldn’t outright say Riki gave up on expecting anything from Rin though. He just couldn’t stomach the idea, whether in Rin2 after seeing those mindscarring texts or throughout the majority of Refrain.

#324

I’m actually referring to an even earlier point in time in Rin2, namely when Riki realized that Rin was incapable of romantic love and that in order for her to mature, he needed to let her go - and let her take on the challenge of the sister school. I’m saying he gave up at that moment because he didn’t explain to her why he had changed his mind and now wanted her to go.

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