Little Busters! - Refrain Arc Discussion

[Karifean]

I’ve talked about my feelings on Refrain at length before, but to make it short, it’s my single favorite route out of any VN ever and I love every second of it. Okay maybe not every second as the story really peaks in its latter half, but you get the point. It’s amazing. That’s how I remember it. And I don’t expect it to be any different this time. I just want to re-experience the magic of this route. I’ve reread parts of it so many times. Time to finally read it all over again from scratch, and be blown away by it once more.

Only this time, it’s not the end of the story, but only a grand milestone. I cannot comment in any of the threads after this one as I haven’t read any of the EX routes, so I’ll just say it here: I’m super hyped to be finally reading more Little Busters. Not just stopping at Refrain, but going beyond, into new uncharted territory of what is already a 10/10 on my list and #2 on my list of favorite VNs of all time.

[Dunciboy]

After playing through the refrain route I was aware they were probably involved in the bust accident, but hearing the feeling of each little buster member after they finally revealed what the world was hit me really I didn’t expect such an emotional impact, how far their friends went to make sure Rin and Riki could live; They gave up everything for their sakes, just so they could live on without their support so they could live happily together without them; Instead of keeping them in the endless loop of the fake world they let them go so they could live on and in the process made them both stronger, so they could LIVE their lives.

Now I’m going to describe some scenes in details from the visual novel I’ve put them in details tabs and marked them as spoilers just in case because I’m going in detail and tell what I thought or/and how I interpenetrated it after I describe each part.

Below a summary for those who might have forgotten of what happened after Riki went unconscious after leaving the fake world

Rin's point of view

After that we see how Rin experiences having made all the friends in that world, which changed her, this was a very beautiful moment if may so so and she finally gets to see Komari and realises for herself what the world she made all those friends in is and declares she doesn’t want to lose any of them, Rin cries and Komari tells her she cries so easily and Rin responds that she is the one that cries easily, but she says but I’m smiling and the one who thought her that was Rikki and she wants Rin to be able to do that as well and thus she requests to part with a smile and reveals the wish she made for her that “May Rin-chan also always keep on smiling.” and so the 2 friends part.

In the hospital

And then we see Rin sitting in the corner near Riki’s bed in the hospital. Riki tells her that she will protect her and wants to life with her. Rin answer that if he’s beside her she can go on. Credits start rolling, is this the end?

So here is part I liked the most about refrain which i’m going to describe in detail.

My favourite part

After going through Rin’s point of view and arriving in the hospital we see how much it meant for Rin making all those friends and how much Rin and Riki need each other. The credits start rolling and a beautiful emotional song starts playing. But it’s not the end we get a question, “It’s not enough” I answer. A conversation starts Rin says she will also become stronger and a ripple spreads. We end back up in school and see the same memories we saw before from Rin but with small details added about her thoughts and then Rin thinks she did something horrible and Rin wants to say sorry to them. She found them all very important Kud, Mio, Komari, Krugay, Haruka, Masato, Keno and Kyousuke they gave her so much, but it it’s too late she only noticed after losing them. They teached her so much, like how’s there’s not just scary things in the world. Rin looks at sunset sky it reminds her of something when they were kids, a setting sun signified the time of parting. It made her realise how she felt lonely and never wanted to part with a ‘goodbye.’ she wants to part with ‘see you tomorrow.’. She remembers it all, how can she always smile? The answer is simple all she needs is to be surrounded with FRIENDS. She answers Komari and tells her “I’ll fulfil your wish” and then she calls Riki and ask him to take her hand.

I really loved this part it just shows how much Rin has grown thanks to the friends she obtained in the fake world. You think that is enough no we aren’t done yet now get to see Riki trying to deal with his weakness.

A beautiful message towards the readers

Riki traces back and goes back to the time before he was born he starts seeing Rin and everyone else, he realises he can lose them and that’s scary, but despite that he’d rather meet those people because spending time with them is so much more important then the loss, the time spend with them can never be replaced and he needs to be strong even if he know he will lose those people some day, because there are so much people to meet every single day and being born is a beautiful thing.

What I just described above from the original story you can basically interpret as a message to everyone it says "Be happy you were born, live your life, meet people, enjoy the moments you share with them and never forget them.

The big final

And then… we return to back to the bus. They both remember it all. We get the same choices like before, but this time an option is added a choice than changes everything so I select “Calm myself” down.

The moment of the truth starts will they be able to save their friends? Did they get strong enough?

Riki tries to calm down and smells gasoline. It’s time for him to learn from his mistakes, right after thinking that he says to Rin “We’re rescuing everybody. But we need a plan.” They have think about a plan and he ask Rin to trust him. Rin ensure Riki she trusts him.
Rin comes up with the idea to inform the police.
Riki starts breaking off branches.
Rin finishes making the call and asks what he is doing. She soon realises he’s making an improvised stretcher. They start carrying out classmate after classmate.
After carrying out multiple classmates Riki find a blood trail they follow it and find Kyousuke.
We get to see a flashback why Kyousuke is also there.
His body is leaning against the hot engine compartment, but his heart is still beating. Riki soon realises oil is leaking out from there and Kyousuke basically used his body to stop the oil from leaking faster and postpones his rescue, but before doing so he wraps his bleeding head with a improvised bandage.
They carry out the last one while doing so Riki asks Rin to check the luggage for anything they can use take care of the wounded. Other classmates start waking up and they start helping with taking care of the wounded.
Now all they had to do was save Kyousuke, but he was stopping the oil and thus preventing the bus from exploding, so something had to take his place. He finds a jacket and stuffs it into the hole. Fire starts rising up. He thanks Kyousuke and saves him. He yells from Rin to help him quick, she helps dragging Kyousuke to safety. They ran as hard as they could and then… the bus exploded.
Riki instantly gets Rin and Kyousuke to the ground and shield them with his body. The smell of his own burning hair fills his nose.
Everything goes black… we hear Kyousuke’s voice envying what Riki did and then we hear Rin sing a song.

What surprised me here is that right after heaving heard Rin sing we are suddenly back in the school, I was wondering what happened so I continued playing and soon realised that we skipped to what happened after the events and Kyousuke was the one who was the most injured, but nobody was fatally injured. But best of all thanks the events in the fake world it caused Kud, Mio, Komari, Krugay, Haruka, Masato, Keno and Kyousuke all to change for the better.

After a certain day Rin asks Riki who he’s in love in and says she isn’t sure if she’s in love with him. I found this party really fun to read it put a smile on my face, because right after that she starts suggesting all her new friends. A fun situation starts with would put a smile on anyone reading this after going through all the story lines and the events. Soon after Kyousuke finally returns the moment we’ve all being waiting for Kyousuke appears at the window and tells them to go on a field trip.

We get a beautiful ending and so the background of my start screen changes to the sea.

In overall i most say I loved this route I enjoyed reading every piece of it hence why I put so much time in describing everything, I hope you enjoyed this route as much as I did because I will probably never want to forget this story. I really enjoyed putting time in this visual novel I’ll gladly give this masterpiece the 10 it deserves.

[octoberpumpkin]

Well that was a twist! I really enjoyed it and it had a lot of emotional impact. I was happy to see the characters grow and I gained a lot more respect for Masato as well.

Gonna have to be honest though, I personally feel it would have been a stronger ending if they had died. They went through all of that journey to make them stronger and gave all those feels and then it just wraps up in a neat little bow. Not to say that this ending was bad at all, I still liked it. It was certainly an emotional journey.

Looking forward to post-refrain stuff!

[Natsume]

I’ve seen a couple what-if fanfiction scenarios about the “it’s enough” choice since I first played Refrain, but yeah. I feel there would’ve been some merit to Kyousuke’s efforts had Riki and Rin been forced to move on past the Little Busters since eventually there’ll be a death they’ll have to cope wth at some point in their lives.

Though personally I’m even more curious to know what would’ve happened had Kyousuke not infiltrated the bus and had stayed in the school to hear about literally all of his friends and family having been victim of a tragedy…

[Pepe]

This is definitely going to be one of the big topics on the Refrain podcast, I am sure. It’s quite controversial, even for the previous readers!

[Naoki_Saten]

Though personally I’m even more curious to know what would’ve happened had Kyousuke not infiltrated the bus and had stayed in the school to hear about literally all of his friends and family having been victim of a tragedy…

He’d swallow his tears and devote the rest of his life to taking care of Riki and Rin, since they would’ve survived either way. It would’ve taken many more years to help them cope with it and it wouldn’t have been as fun, but he’d eventually get them to be able to live normal lives. Although Riki’s Narcolepsy would never have been cured. That’s my take on the entire thing.

If Riki and Rin had not survived, either, I suppose Kyousuke wouldn’t be destroyed completely, but he’d never be the same as before. I think it would be something like the difference between the young Yoshino Yuusuke and the grown up one in Clannad.

But more importantly, “it’s enough” is naught but heresy! Many important things would have been lost. I have elaborated on this two years ago:

Little Busters! - Refrain Arc Discussion

Every once in a while, when discussing Refrain, someone will eventually throw in something like “It woulda been better if only Riki and Rin survived.”, “Key magic ruins everything.”, "Maeda should stop being a wimp and kill off more characters." The last two aren’t even limited to LB discussions. I find those statements really annoying. I can’t agree with those statements. The ending of a story is very important. It has the potential of completely changing the meaning of the entire story. So…

Bad endings aren’t inherently better just because good endings are more commonplace. It’s not that simple. The better ending is the one that fits the story the most.

[StarfishBender]

IT’S ENOUGH

Wow, I’ve enjoyed this so much more when it gets serious and a little dark (I guess I’m a just a forsaken miserablist). The story/secret was something I’d come to expect ( though not totally) as there are plenty of clues and hints along the way, which I hasten to add I hold up as good writing rather than dropping something out of left field.

Someone started slicing an onion in the vicinity at a couple of points I swear.

Now if you don’t mind I’m going to look after Rin and we’ll be happy together. Time to move onto something else…

Wait a minute - who am I fooling?

IT’S NOT ENOUGH!

EDIT:
Well that was annoying, I had to stop last night and continuing this morning only had a few minutes before completing Refrain. Wish I’d been able to go through it all in one sitting.

You know, I can see the merits of the ‘It’s Enough’ ending in that in one way giving the possibility of the entire experience of the common route as a fabulous construct only, then leaving a big question over the future and some uncertainty is rather de nos jours for modern drama with its liking for leaving options open for a sequel that completes the story ( or just leaves yet another open ending / “invites the viewer to imagine their own ending”!)

But ultimately I think they chose to give the fans the ending that they would have most wanted and I have no qualms about that. Really it’s no different to a certain other ‘Key Magic’ VN, where the Use Rewind/Reset Button has to be earned (and feel strongly as if it’s earned), in that respect.

Not perfect for me and I still prefer Clannad over LitBus, but still high quality and, this will be in my Top 3 VNs after Steins;Gate and Clannad. I can appreciate what they have attempted and achieved here despite not being fully enamoured with the Common Route.

Now onto the remainder of the Post-Refrain Litbus experience…

[Tsukishiro]

Not that it matters, but in Kyousuke’s Route, the flashback Rin Route shown was Rin1 (Kengo’s arm wasn’t broken) but then went on to the encounter between Riki and Kyousuke in Rin2. Was this intentional?

Really though, I’m mainly interested in the how of the events of late-Refrain since most all the symbolism and morals have been established. I’ll use bullets points for fun.

• How was the Dream World created?
  There’s no logical answer, but we all knew that. Kyousuke’s regret and will resonated with that of the other Busters and an eternal world was created. Kyousuke planned to keep Riki and Rin there until they matured to the point where they could survive in the real world after everyone else died.

• How did Riki hear Kyousuke in the hospital after running away with Rin?
  Two theories: one is that Riki was imagining what Kyousuke would say to him. The other (that I’m assuming is true) is that they were still in the Dream World at that time. That would explain why Kyousuke could tell Riki to “try again” if he tries to rescue everyone right away. Once they ran out the school gates in the Dream World, Kyousuke put them in that one last simulation. This leads into…

• How did Riki and Rin return to that World after running away if they were in a hospital?
  Riki and Rin’s refusal to accept the outcome of everyone dying caused a ripple that placed them back in the Dream World, which still existed because of Komari. Rin recalled her memories with the other girls before encountering Komari on the roof. Riki on the other hand, dove back in time through his memories. Since the Dream World’s form was based on memories, Riki could go back and experience even subconscious memories.

• How did Riki overcome his narcolepsy? After going back as far as possible, Riki finally understood how wonderful life was despite it’s sufferings. With this epiphany, his mental weakness was overcome and the World finally dissolved for good.

So if it wasn’t for Komari holding the World together, all would have been lost. I hope this theory is logically-sound, if nothing else. Maybe some of the post-Refrain routes will provide more insight.

[Kanon]

I’ve got 11 hours to read all of Refrain and make this post, lets see how long it takes.

May 13th

We open up with a spooky image, and a spooky noise, all of the theorywankers are probably throwing there hands in the air in excitement at seeing this. While the first line of the route makes it seem like it’s the start of common, ‘A World Where Nothing Happened’ playing immediately after as Riki recalls this disturbing image makes it very apparent that no, no this is not common. Masato and Kengo’s fight being way more serious further hammers this in, as Riki tries to create the Battle Rules he is shot down, enforcing something Rin 2 had hammered in ‘Riki is not even close to Kyousuke’s level’.

May 14th

And the pretense that this is common is shattered(like Kengo’s arm), Rin is B R O K E N(like Kengo’s arm), that wonderful scene where Kyousuke forms the baseball team is replaced with Riki, alone, looking at a baseball given an unflattering description. Another parallel comes along where instead of Riki staring at Kyousuke and admiring his childish charm as he reads Manga, he instead confronts him as Kyousuke looks at him with an intimidating glare. Thin Chronicle plays during silly banter between Kengo/Riki/Masato instead of any of the usual themes from Common. Everything is off, and it’s O M I N O U S~

May 15th

Kengo trying to be Kyousuke, lots of it, for Riki, meanwhile, the real Kyousuke replacement takes his first step.

May 17th

Born into this World! Plays for the first(?) time outside the title screen as Masato kills off the Little Busters, the song makes you think of the title screen with all the friends running along in joy, yet it’s playing for all the friends walking apart instead.

May 18th

And heeeeeere we are, the secret of the world rears its head again, this time, for the first time, Riki takes it seriously, he questions what the secret is and at long last, it becomes central to the plot. Riki also makes a decision that will help drive the story, he becomes the leader of the Little Busters, the first step to his endgoal: matching Kyousuke.

Episode Masato

And so Refrain begins. Riki speaks, the voiceless (not really)faceless protagonist appears before the player, this shit blows my mind, it’s the start of the real focus of the route, the boys. We see Masato’s thoughts gently reassuring Riki despite his words at the time doing the opposite before it transitions into the insanity that befalls him, The World Where Nothing Happens plays the entire time. Overall the Riki/Rin vs Masato isn’t too much to write home about, it’s crazy to see Masato, well, crazy, and hulling that statue around like a boss and the parallel to the old battle with Kyousuke is great, one might say Kyousuke went too hard on triggering Masato, like me, I’d say that, but I do understand he needed to be completely gone to make it a true battle.

Episode Kengo

So lets start this off with Kengo spoiling the by now obvious time loops. Also dropping all the hints about Kyousuke’s control over the world, this episode spends most of it’s time answering a lot of questions. Already this episode starts off much more striking than the last because of this. This part has a lot of mirrors to Rin2, Kengo telling Riki to rely on him like in Rin2, but with Riki rejecting him, the baseball match against Kengo is a retread of the one in Rin2 with far less villainy involved.

Episode Kyousuke

The start of this is like a montage, a montage of all the fun ideas in common, a montage of all the shitty villainy in Rin2. It really sets the stage for the ending to truly begin. Huge shoutouts to both Riki and Kyousuke thinking ‘fuck I want to hug him right now’ in the same scene while being unable too.
Also fuck all the crawling scenes, fuck em, I don’t want any of that shit.

Oh no.

I’m already losing it at Kyousuke calling Kengo a crybaby and admiring Masato in his thoughts. I’m also gonna throw out here that all the voice acting is 12/10 so I don’t end up repeating myself.

Masato’s farewell is the most simple, after he kept his role ironclad this entire time, he makes one small stumble at the end as he says his goodbyes.

“I’m so happy…”

In the end he’s truly the strongest, he’s the one who made it though this without crying, he’s the one who stepped up and said goodbye first.

Speaking of crybabies.

KENGO MY SON, BOYS DON’T CRY. BOYS BE SMILE.
I can’t deal with this, after he has appeared so strong this entire time he can’t even catch the ball he’s so upset over it, to see him like this is simply too much, fortunately after having a little cry he does manage a smile right at the end.

“Little Busters are forever…”

After Kengo butters you up, it’s time for Kyousuke.

The Homerun of symbolism is here to tell you what the true ending is. As Kyousuke can’t even catch it, he turns away to hide his sadness, he tries to leave. Riki doesn’t let him, Riki starts crying, he tells Kyousuke that the plot can shove it and he just wants to be with his friends.

And then we get to see Kyousuke’s face and OOPS I BREAK.

“I like you guys so much more than you like me!!”

I can’t really deal with this, seeing Kyousuke bawling his eyes out, frustrated not at how he’s going to die, but at how he won’t be able to be with those he loves. And Faraway ISN’T HELPING.

As Riki and Rin escape Kyousuke makes one last walk though the school with The Boys Farewell to play him off and the dream world ends.

And then after getting you all emotional about that that cunt Maeda makes you run away from everyone and leave them to die.

OH YEAH THERE WAS GIRLS IN THIS VN.

Honestly Rin’s friendship with them is, well it’s dubious at best, it’s told, not shown. Even for Komari, the only one I can actually get behind believing. That said, Komari’s goodbye is a perfectly fine scene, I mean, it’s nothing compared to my sons goodbyes, but it’s alright, can’t knock it.

After that is the short scene in the hospital as this beautiful yet bitter ending draws to a close HAHA FUCK YOU KYOUSUKE IT’S NOT ENOUGH.

Let me tell you a story of a younger me who got to this choice, I don’t know what to push to finish the game proper, all I saw is Kyousuke telling me that all of them dying was enough, and I didn’t push this choice out of any sense to see what was going to happen. I HAMMERED THE SHIT OUT OF IT’S NOT ENOUGH BECAUSE IT’S NOT FUCKING ENOUGH.

I have never pushed a dialogue option with such sheer passion and meaning before or since.

Episode Riki

Good lord this CG is literally the title screen but from Riki’s perspective MMMMMMMMMMMHMMHMHMHMMMHM.

And then Riki went back in time and rewrote the narcolepsy out of his fetus I think? Ignore that, the narcolepsy is probably just symbolic of his fears and losing is shows him overcoming them.
After some tense ass bus fun, where you get to get your revenge on Maeda for maknig you run away, we get to see what that Homerun symbolism was about. Riki went above and beyond Kyousuke’s expectations, he saved everyone.

After a nice slice of Common again, the long awaited return of Kyousuke and THE VAN, we get the best god damn ending credits ever, first of all Little Jumper is the BEST version of Little Busters, it’s even still got that amazing intro thing that isn’t present in the Ecstasy version. The van animations are amazing, the idiots falling off the van, running after it, seeing the girls inside, the girls jumping the baseball being homeran E V E R Y T H I N G FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD.(ps read bokura no asa).

So with that over, let me introduce you to my sons.

Masato

The greatest of fools, better than Sunohara, more complex than Kitagawa, Masato plays his part perfectly, he’s funny, endearing and most of all, the strongest god damn guy ever, I spoke of it during his farewell. It can’t be understated how much he trusts Riki either, Kyousuke wanted to force them to grow, Kengo wanted to protect them forever, in the middle of all this chaos, Masato always trusted Riki to make the right choice. He is a dear friend and I love him.

Kengo

The character who changes the most in the VN, he goes for the ultra serious no nonsense guy, to the ultra stupid full nonsense guy, to the most consistent and reliable friend, to a great obstacle, and finally he ends up as a crybaby in the end. All of these Kengo’s have charm and are all worth loving. He might not be as strong as Masato, but he is my precious child who needs to be protected.

Kyousuke

I can’t do him justice with words.

Riki

Riki is an underrated little scamp, he tries to hide behind the camera, pretend he’s not a character(we’ll call it symbolism for hiding behind Kyousuke), but he is so much more than a pair of eyes and a dick to be your window into the world, this is never more apparent than in Refrain where he steps out in full view of the boys. He’s not as amazing as any of them, but he’s worth a hell of a lot of respect and admiration.

Overall? Yeah I like Refrain a lot. It’s the story of my beautiful boys going though and overcoming hardship, a story of how the bonds of friendship have no limit, how the past should be cherished but you should always look forward, how you shouldn’t just stand back and admire your idols, you should push on and be someone to idolize. how the encounter is more important than the goodbye, and to accept loss, you know, all that good shit, all that GOOOOOOOOOOD shit.

Ok fine. The ending. I love it, it’s not enough is the only true path, I understand those who think it should have ended in the hospital, but FUCK YOU, my beloved Little Busters deserve their happy god damn ending, I won’t let anyone say they didn’t.

[Naoki_Saten]

all I saw is Kyousuke telling me that all of them dying was enough, and I didn’t push this choice out of any sense to see what was going to happen. I HAMMERED THE SHIT OUT OF IT’S NOT ENOUGH BECAUSE IT’S NOT FUCKING ENOUGH.

Goddammit, Kanon, I wanna hug you right now! I’m not even halfway through the VN, but your post made me feel the refrain feels again!

I can’t wait to reread the whole thing and become a pathetic mess of sad and happy!

[RickyNg1994]

Huh, that’s interesting. Wait, is there even an official main love interest for Riki? I mean, the girls are all over the place.

[Tsukishiro]

It’s implied that Kud’s route took place in the real world, at least up to the point when Noumi decided not to go back. I could be wrong though.
I’m sure most people would say it’s Rin, even though she still doesn’t understand the concept of love even at the end of Refrain. Except in the Rin-Refrain ending, which is more of a what-if for me.

[josemadv]

• How did Riki hear Kyousuke in the hospital after running away with Rin?
  Two theories: one is that Riki was imagining what Kyousuke would say to him. The other (that I’m assuming is true) is that they were still in the Dream World at that time. That would explain why Kyousuke could tell Riki to “try again” if he tries to rescue everyone right away. Once they ran out the school gates in the Dream World, Kyousuke put them in that one last simulation. This leads into…

One more thing about the second one is that when you fail in the “save everyone chain of elections” you return immediatly to the main menu while when in the first time, where you only can choose to escape to continue, if you choose to try to rescue everyone Kyousuke teel you to not do that, so in the second time Kyousuke can’t even talk with you in that moment (is the real world while the first one try is yet in the other world).

[Odinbeard_McSparkles]

There seems to be something special with me and VNs, specifically that they seem to hit me way harder than any anime ever has, even the ones where I think I’ve already experienced of what I thought they had to offer. What I’ve read of Clannad so far did this, as has LB!. And while I somehow managed to remember incredibly little about the series as a whole, (which was fucking awesome since it felt incredibly fresh), I don’t remember getting anywhere near as choked up watching the anime as I did throughout Refrain in the VN.

The first thing I want to touch on is the role reversal of Riki and Kyousuke. I think I alluded that this was seemingly likely to happen in my common route posts, but now I think I have to chalk it up to a subconscious, latent memory from the anime rather than some sort of awesome prediction/sleuthing on my part. Overall, this was the route at its best for me. His progression (throughout the whole VN, but most notably here) from a timid, dreary kid to a strong and crafty leader was a joy to watch unfold over time. The CG of Riki holding his hand out to Kyousuke with the other Busters may just be my favorite moment in the entire game. Short, sweet as hell, powerful and meaningful.

The other thing I really appreciated were the Kengo bits. He felt very much in the backseat for majority of the common and character routes, and here we finally got to see much more depth to his character. His inner conflict, which seemed to stem from regret over losing his remaining time with his friends once he realized how much it meant to him. His frustration, anger, and confusion is palpable throughout, and I found it very relatable. Every Buster makes remarks as to how they don’t want the good times to end, but not on the level we see from Kengo here. It took long enough, but I’m glad he finally got his moment in the sun. Additionally, we already knew how impactful meeting Kyousuke was to Riki, but it was cool to see how much it meant to the other original Busters as well.

Quick shout out before getting into the ending, but holy shit did some many of these moments hit me hard. Kengo’s first break down after losing to Riki, the last baseball game, all the goodbyes, and a home run to send them all off. Sad, yet triumphant. Hopeful and optimistic in the face of the unknown. (And it weirdly reminded me of Sandlot’s 4th of July scene, in a good way.)

Alright, time to discuss the Key magic ending stuff. Not sure if I’ve directly confronted it yet here on the forums, (but will do so at some point, as I see a thread for a more in-depth discussion on the topic itself), but Key magic can go either way with me. What I do know I have mentioned (a lot, actually) as being incredibly important to me is whether or not the structure of the story being told properly allows for the possibly of magic to exist, (aka, whenever I refer to the “believeability” of a plot device within its given context), and Refrain is one of few exceptions where I personally found it acceptable. There’s enough foreshadowing in the game that at the very least shows that something is off, and Kurugaya’s route showed a possibility of time-loops and memory loss as recurring themes. Every route resets at some point, and likely in the very way she described when she says she wished she just woke up and forgot everything that had happened. (Poor Yuiko got the short straw ) All in all, I didn’t have any trouble buying into the magical bullshit idea this time around.

…Well, not quite, but most of it. What still has me scratching my wonderfully sparkly beard in confusion (and somebody can probably break it down better than I can) is this: the ultimate purpose of the dream world is to make Riki and Rin strong enough to carry on in a world without Kyousuke (or Masato, Kengo, and the other Busters, by extension). This is what makes it possible for them to save everyone, which is all well and good, but was unfortunately invalidated for me when Kyousuke survives, and everyone waits for his return to take the lead again like before rather than Riki stepping up in his absence. I love the interpretation of Riki hitting the home run before the dream world collapses as a metaphor for him being able to surpass Kyousuke’s expectations, but I couldn’t help but feel it rang a tad hollow, considering what actually happens. Again, maybe someone can explain it better, (and maybe I’m just being overly pessimistic/skeptical) but I think it’s a little hard to write it off since it really strikes me as a best of both worlds ending; strength gained and retained (maybe?) in the real world, pain mostly and conspicuously forgotten in dreamland, and topped off with the obligatory, run of the mill, anime trope beach episode to leave you with the nice warm fuzzy feeling all over. This is admittedly kind of a small gripe, but I feel that if Kyousuke died, it would have made the journey and message more meaningful overall. But hey, that’s more of a personal hang up than anything else, so your mileage will likely vary.

Either way, it was a fucking blast. I was sniveling like a child through most of it, and despite the little rant I just went on about my gripes with the last moments, I did totally smile like a hypocritical asshole when Kyousuke showed up in the window.

Oh yeah, and another shout out to the music, A World Where Nothing Happened was the standout. Wonderfully unsettling. Simultaneous loved and fucking hated every time it came on.

[Takafumi]

Responding to a post from the Rin thread…

Little Busters! - Rin Natsume Route & Character Discussion (Spoilers for all pre-refrain routes!)

Welcome to Rin2, where everyone is a fucking idiot. (Except for Masato.)

You call this a “Kanon-style” rant but I associate Kanon rants with negativity. This post about Rin2 however is a highlight of everything great about the route… At least if you’re viewing it as a small part of a greater whole.
The characters and events of Rin2 are stupid and forced. Every single step of the route involves Riki failing, whether it by his own weaknesses or by the betrayal of those he depended on.
Kyousuke set in motion a plan that was impossible to succeed. Riki followed his great leader by creating a second plan that was impossible to succeed. And that’s the intent (of both Kyousuke and Maeda.) This is a plan to twist the world to such an extreme that Riki is forced to act.
Kyousuke himself was convinced that he (and a bunch of the others) were dead, and that Riki and Rin would be alone. He outright rejected any other possibility. He committed “sins” purely to reach a conclusive growth for Riki, and after a certain amount of loops he no longer cared about the means he which he achieved such a goal. Once you reach Refrain it becomes obvious that all these ideas are the point of Rin2; Kyousuke is so caught up in his grand plan that he no longer realizes people have agency. He’s effectively blinded by his own power, waiting for everything to line up how he ordered… And Riki and Rin are dumb/smart enough to go along with it up until the very last moment of the VN.

[Naoki_Saten]

I guess I should add a disclaimer of sorts to that post of mine. But here, I shall simply reword it:

Welcome to Rin2, where everyone is a fucking idiot - (Except for Masato.) - AND I LOVE THAT!
Or as Kanon would say, “But we love them flaws, right? Oh yes, gimme that shit.”

So yes, all those things are great.

Kyousuke’s and Riki’s mistakes are really relatable and understandable. They showcase their flaws in a beautiful, albeit shocking way.

Kyousuke barely ever failed, so he got careless. I can’t really blame him, since Riki’s development was progressing marvelously. Riki had faced his own weaknesses head-on with the other heroines as long as he kept trying. No wonder Kyousuke expected Rin to make progress when faced with a bigger challenge, as well. But Kyousuke completely miscalculated. I attribute that, additionally to the reasons you named, to two factors:

1. Rin and Riki are different people with different qualities and different weaknesses. Similar approaches wouldn’t necessarily yield similar results.
2. Riki’s main drive in those routes was love. Rin didn’t have that, or anything similar.

Riki was driven into a corner and Kyousuke really seemed like a god. I don’t blame Riki for deciding to run with his tail between his legs. I didn’t see any better solution, either. And especially, Riki was under a lot of pressure, had a small time limit and Rin’s personality was disintegrating right before his eyes.
After running away, it woulda been smarter to make Rin contribute to their survival, but again, I get it. Riki just wanted to make her happy and keep her away from hardships, I guess. Ironically, that’s exactly why she was still weak.

Kengo, too, was being foolish if you know his reasons from Refrain. He just wanted to play around forever. That’s why he challenged Kyousuke and used Riki as a figurehead. It’s childish, but it makes Kengo complete as a character. It’s absolutely relatable.

The only thing I can’t forgive about the mess of Rin2 is Rin’s betrayal.

[Takafumi]

Kyousuke barely ever failed, so he got careless.

See, I’d disagree with that. From Kyousuke’s perspective Rin2 wasn’t a failure at all, in fact I think it went perfectly. It’s only seen as a failure as a reader because we are watching events from Riki’s POV, and Riki’s once-unwavering trust in Kyousuke is destroyed.
You’re correct when you say that Rin2 is a showcase of Kyousuke’s flaws, but I don’t believe it is a showcase of Kyousuke’s failures. The plan went perfectly.
Going along the same thought process, I also disagree with the following:
“No wonder Kyousuke expected Rin to make progress…”
“Kyousuke completely miscalculated”

Kengo, too, was being foolish if you know his reasons from Refrain.

In regards to Kengo’s involvement, I think his actions are driven not primarily by a desire to play around forever but by a moral rejection of Kyousuke’s brute-force methods. This is further explained during Refrain.

The only thing I can’t forgive about the mess of Rin2 is Rin’s betrayal.

I think her actions are more understandable once you think about the symbolism of the cats. The cats in Rin’s life are effectively a substitute for Kyousuke, and with that symbolism in mind her “betrayal” was a choice of Kyousuke over Riki, which I think is entirely acceptable given her character; Rin just wants her brother and some friends—she doesn’t want to run away, but that’s all Riki can do.

[Pepe]

See, I’d disagree with that. From Kyousuke’s perspective Rin2 wasn’t a failure at all, in fact I think it went perfectly.

For reasons personal to my own, I really, really, REALLY wish your thoughts aren’t true. I refuse to believe that Kyousuke would, no matter how desperate the situation, drive Rin into that corner. Sure, he wanted Riki and Rin to be separated. And sure, maybe he wanted to force Rin to stand on her own two feet. And maybe the whole Riki and Rin escaping was his plan all along!

But I refuse to believe that he intended for Rin to be driven to a point where she could no longer trust anyone, having to attend a special school, no matter how temporary that might have been. I refuse to believe that Kyousuke would be so insensitive as to wish his own sister to become mentally unstable no matter how desperate the situation was. Because the Kyousuke in my mind and the Kyousuke in my heart would never do something like that.

The worst part about all this is that there is a part of me that thinks he might actually do just that and he might actually be that kinda guy; and I don’t think I would ever forgive him for that.

[Takafumi]

There’s a reason I say I don’t like Kyousuke as a person. That earlier mention of “sin” was described by Kyousuke himself, and he even briefly touches upon an idea of struggling to live with his actions should Riki and Rin somehow save him.
Kyousuke is the guy with the plan here, and he goes to extremes. I’m not entirely sure if Rin’s mental state is specifically brought up as part of his grand plan, but he was the one who caused it to happen, and he makes use of it to further his goals through Refrain. Kyousuke is so caught up in himself that he fixates on such cruel methodology, but you gotta do what you gotta do. It’s entirely understandable when you realize that he has both lived a multitude of existences within the dream world (some of which with horrible outcomes) and reached the brink of death several times within the “real” world, and that he believes continuing to live is more important than any event in the fake reality.

I’d link some screenshots from earlier posts that back this up, but they’re all dead. Nevertheless this toxic nature shows up in monologues from both Kyousuke and Kengo throughout Refrain, as well as earlier in the common route.

[grooven]

I will have more thoughts in the next couple of days on the re-read, but as of now I disagree with you on a few points. I don’t believe at all that Kyousuke is the issue in Rin’s mental state. I mean, you aren’t talking about the issue that had caused her to recess into a non communicative like state? Or did you mean something else?

I don’t find his method cruel at all, for me it makes sense. Extreme or not, I think someone could do far worse. Personally, to me, I think he is the best character of the game . I will describe this further once I read it all again and take all into account.