THEY WERE. The ‘real’ part of the story as you call it wasnt just in Refrain. It was the whole thing. The world would not have been created if only Kyousuke, Kengo, and Masato had regrets. Each heroine’s route and resolution of their regrets was just as much a part of the ‘real’ story as Refrain. Without them, there wouldnt have been a ‘world where nothing happened’ in the first place, without them Riki wouldnt have been strong enough, etc.
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This is not what I mean. The girls didn’t have farewells, some regrets of the girls don’t make sense in the real world if taken literally (I don’t think they should’ve spilled all the beans, but maybe more hints), we don’t see what happened exactly before the bus accident, etc.
I see what melody is saying and I kinda agree. While Little Busters generally did a great job of making all the routes relevant, that doesn’t mean there isn’t room for improvement. It’s unfortunate that the only girls who get any real closure AFTER the secret of the world is known to the viewer are Rin, Saya, Sasami, Kanata, and to a lesser extent Kurugaya. I feel like there could’ve been a lot of benefit in showing the full picture of Kud’s regrets, or more insight into the aftermath of Mio’s development in her route, for example.
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Well there is Kud’s third ending in EX. I haven’t spent much time on that though, might do that once I’ve re-read the route in a couple of weeks. MIo doesn’t get anything though except that really, really, strange sex scene.
Is that one translated?
No, nothing EX related has been translated for public use. I gave up on the EX translation a while ago.
Except they did help Riki and Rin mature. How else do you think Riki got stronger? And in the epilogue, you can see that those conflicts were still being solved in their lives, it wasn’t something from the past. The girls were dying with those troubles unsolved. That’s why they had regrets.
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I’d argue that it wasn’t solving their problems that helped Rin and Riki mature. If that was the case Kyousuke wouldn’t have been this massively immature dork that just feigned at knowing what he was doing. It just sorta… Opened the way to them figuring out for themselves what they needed to do. Kyousuke’s plan fucked up, it was by moving past this that they helped themselves.
Uhuh. But these regrets weren’t just immediately solved, rather they were helped just a little bit. The twins weren’t immediately free of their pasts, they’d just begun to work on their futures. The same could be said about everyone. This wasn’t a solution just another turning point, so to speak.
Ummm… no, Ive never seen it described like that before, nor do I agree with it. It was never about any of the characters messing things up for themselves. It was about a bunch of kids who had had some really screwed up things happen to them.
Some of them wished they could go back and fix them; some of them wished that they had been able to get past it; some of them wished they had just done more in the first place.
It wasn’t hyperbolic immaturities. They were real, believable regrets, that were able to be fulfilled in miraculous ways due to the secret of the world.
You’ll also remember that it was only the boys, namely Kyousuke, who had regrets about Riki and Rin. Kyousuke didnt place them there. He simply used the nature of the world and the other regrets to his advantage, in order fulfil his own. You may call that screwed up, but to me it seems pretty selfless. Kyousuke’s pretty smart, and everyone trusts him. He didnt have to help anyone. But instead he committed himself to helping everyone.
[quote=“Aegair, post:175, topic:203”]
Kyousuke’s plan fucked up
[/quote]I don’t know if you’ve read the rest of this discussion above yet, but there are a bunch of us here who actually think Kyousuke might have never messed up. Like, he was lying when he said that he had messed up in Rin2, and pushing Riki and Rin to leave, acting as distant and depressed, was all part of his plan.
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Ah, I’ve probably phrased what I was trying to say badly. I’m not saying their regrets weren’t believable or real. Moreso that the way they were being ‘not-dealt’ with was hyperbolic and immature. What happened to all the characters wasn’t their fault, but their ways of dealing with that was more the issue. It worked, but it was unbelievably toxic for them all. It didn’t solve anything. The twins were just hurting each other needlessly, Komari was just running from her past. Kurugaya running from the future, sorta kinda. Mio taking escapism to the extreme. (I feel I’ve probs over simplified here >.<)
What Riki did was help them begin to deal with these issues, their pasts, their futures themselves. But I wouldn’t really say he fulfilled or solved them, nor would I say his acts of fulfilling or solving them was what ended up helping them all in the end. Rather they helped to get to the point they could live on. Or something.
I’d probs say both. Kyousuke being brilliant, and Kyousuke screwing up I find to both be kind of important. Which is more sorta connected to your next point on Kyousuke not messing up. I’ll read that discussion at some point but as far as I can see taking that viewpoint would change alot of how various scenes are read. Not that that is wrong or anything, just different and incompatible with my own thoughts on things. Since if Kyousuke never messed up his mirrored progression alongside Riki isn’t really a thing. Nor would him being this flawless being be treated as false and silly, just something to be accepted rather than what ultimately is discarded by the end of Refrain. ^^;
I’ve posted some things about this before, but it’s stated in places of the VN that Kyousuke’s plan never really went wrong. He was generally always on-track.
Another thing I’ve posted here before, is after the events of Refrain, Riki points out how everyone has changed slightly. Litbus is just the starting point of the cast coming to terms with everything.
These two posts should be easy to find. They are a big string of VN screenshots.
The characters in all the routes were basically… not growing up. They had regrets, but they never tried to overcome them alone. Riki never tried to accept what happened in his past. Rin never tried to make friends without Kyousuke’s help. The twins never tried to talk about things sensibly. Most of the characters had a similar refusal to not progress.
At the start of the VN, Yuiko had already made the decision to progress from her past regrets, so she’s slightly different to the others, but she was also the only one to refuse the world’s reset, so she’s arguably the one who has grown least through it all.
Kengo was also in a weird place of accepting the past at face value, but he still wanted to have done it differently.
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[quote=“Aegair, post:177, topic:203”]
But I wouldn’t really say he fulfilled or solved them, nor would I say his acts of fulfilling or solving them was what ended up helping them all in the end. Rather they helped to get to the point they could live on. Or something.
[/quote]First of all, thanks for clarifying. However, I still disagree. Obviously in the real world they werent dealing with the issues properly, or they wouldnt have had the regrets in the first place. If Riki hadnt helped them to fulfil their regrets, their regrets wouldnt have gone away, and the world would have continued to exist. Remember, they weren’t supposed to survive. They weren’t trying to get to a point where they could live on, because they were supposed to die in the end no matter what. They were only there so they could die without each of their regrets.
Im not sure what you mean by this. However, I would still say that Kyousuke progressed. He did have a regret that he had to deal with, after all. The only difference is, he knew the secret of the world and took matters into his own hands from the beginning.
Part of the secret of the world is that anything, no matter how miraculous or seemingly magic, can be done in order to help fulfil the regrets. I guess my theory is that Kyousuke knew the secret of the world because it was necessary in order for him to fulfil his regret.
Kyousuke did mess up. I dont believe he had this flawless plan from the beginning; I dont believe he always knew exactly what to do, nor did he actually have any control over what Riki ultimately chose to do.
Most of all, I certainly don’t believe that he did it all in one try. All the bad end, those were all times where a regret was not solved, and Kyousuke and everyone had to start all over again. And don’t you imagine that the world had repeated over and over again before the VN even started. Kyousuke said that it had repeated more times than he could count.
Thats part of what makes Kyousuke, and Masato and Kengo, so incredible, that they could go through all those times, over and over again. Even if Kyousuke was feigning being furious with himself during Refrain, he certainly wasnt feigning how tired he was, and how much pain he was going through. Kyousuke still progressed, we just didnt see it or really realize it was happening until then end because it would have given away the secret of the world.
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Mmm. I’m at those / past those already. I’m still not entirely sold on Kyousuke not having messed up. Rather he’s continuing to do what he can. Like sure he’s not really sick, but that isn’t the same as him being okay. Or anything. Either way it’s an interesting discussion to read through.
EDIT: This could change if I reread it though. A large part of me wanting Kyousuke to have messed up is how to then frames Riki’s and his developments. I find Little Busters to be more about Kyousuke than Riki as is.(Sorta) Kyousuke messing up and Riki understanding that seems just to important to be false.
I’d say Rin2 went far from how Kyousuke wanted it to, so in that sense he did mess up, but he still went on to make the best of the terrible situation and chose to set up Refrain, which is what ultimately succeeded.
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Oh I doubt Kyousuke planned for Rin and Riki to fail during Rin2. But don’t you think he probably wanted Riki and Rin to run away together? After all, thats what he was preparing them for: living on by themselves.
Considering his reaction to Riki and Rin running away in Episode Kyousuke, I feel it’s fairly safe to say it wasn’t part of his plan. He wanted them to stay strong even during this difficult trial and overcome it without running away from it. That also lines up with his ulterior motives of helping them move on even after the bus accident.
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I dont remember the details of that except for his comment that he’d “never seen the gears of this world so messed up”, which in my opinion could go either way. So you may be right.
[quote=“Karifean, post:183, topic:203”]
He wanted them to stay strong even during this difficult trial and overcome it without running away from it. That also lines up with his ulterior motives of helping them move on even after the bus accident.
[/quote]The only thing I have to argue against that is, he wanted Riki and Rin to be able to survive on their own, but he wanted them to be together. I guess I thought:
“He might have separated Rin right after Riki had started “going out” with her, and then acted as if he was the bad guy, to force them to be so distraught that the only option left would be to run away. Of course, running away just the two of them would simulate how they would have to live after they return to The World Where Something Happened.”
Thats not a perfect description, so I hope you understand what Im trying to say ^^;
Basically, Ive never been 100% on this theory; but I think it is a very interesting way to look at it, and actually mostly works.
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Another tiny detail I noticed today while reading the epilogue:
When Rin asks who Riki who he is in love with, it’s pretty clear that Rin has very little concept of limerence, but when I saw these few lines here…
This could very well mean that instead of being romantically-obsessed with Riki, she treats him more like a second brother. Riki, more than likely, mostly feels the same way throughout the entire story. Despite that, Rin definitely wants to be with Riki out of her own free will, which could just be her wanting to understand what it is like to love, using her best friend as a practice dummy, rather than actually being physically attracted to Riki.
It might be for the best that she plays matchmaker instead, though…
Also, kudos to Miocchi for agreeing with me. :3
Pay no attention to the pointless tangent behind the curtain. > <
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Wait… you mean this wasn’t obvious to everyone? I could never understand why everyone always says “Rin’s romance is so terrible”, when it wasnt even romance. They’re practically siblings, and if not that then most certainly the best of friends. Ive always been confused when people say “Rin is the worst pairing for Riki”, when she’s the closest to him of all the girls. It might not be a romantic love, but its still very clearly love, imo.
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Honestly I also suprised at the end of ‘refrain’ when Rin trying to matchmaking Riki with every LB girls members…
In my point of view of a girl, she’s like debating herself :
“Riki I love you…but I think I’m not perfect as LB girls members…I think you’re wrong for choosing me…look! there are plenty good girls more better than me…are you sure…? but I also don’t want you to leave me and chase another girl…”
I think Rin before refrain won’t say anything like that (that matchmaking I mean)—so I feel she’s matured more than before—and she cherish her relationship with riki after that accident happen—
Also…if Rin didn’t have any feeling to Riki…she won’t angry at Kurugaya’s route…when Kyousuke made fun of Riki x Kurugaya for example–she’s angry+jealous and after that we can’t find her anywhere—
I don’t know what happen in the past—her relationship with Riki, but I can see that she’s think Riki is the most special more than Masato, Kengo and Kyousuke…when she get ‘that paper’ from lennon for the first time for example–if she think the 4 members as the same important lenght–I think she will tell it to them and taadaaahhh~ Kyousuke plan failed~
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