You’re 100% correct, but honestly people do this so often that I felt it needed re-stating as a separate item…
This actually gets quite iffy becausw pornography laws get quite iffy depending on where you live. This is unverified but I hear that showing a naked woman in a film in germany is just pg-13 but showing someone getting massacred to death would be r-18
But yeah I do agree with your point but some people fail to note this fact; it affects me since I visit kaza (both the forum and discord) at work, so if I am scrolling and something explicit appears while a co-worker is glancing at my screen, I would be in trouble
The other problem is even though it could be legal to have it, some of our members cannot view it for any reason. The laws vary greatly, but at some point the forum has to be safe for all members.
Fanservice is one thing and totally subjective anyway. Forcing your ideas of porn on someone else is an entirely different matter.
Also, there are chats dealing with topics related to porn that really shouldn’t be had in any sort of public space IMHO. I won’t go into specifics, but I don’t see how such topics would help anyone or make it a more welcoming or friendly environment.
This is where things get a little contentious. We don’t want Kazamatsuri to appear a place where we’re too strict on the kind of things people are allowed to say here. People have different tolerance levels for the kind of things they’re okay seeing.
Some people will comment stuff like “I wanna put my dick in her” for a character he likes. It’s not really the subject of the conversation, just a passing comment, usually for comedic effect. Are comments like that unacceptable for Kazamatsuri, or should we be lenient?
The line where things start becoming really uncomfortable for me personally is when people start talking about how much they love lolis, and making comparisons between lolicon and pedophilia. Inherently, I have nothing wrong with loli content or people that enjoy that, even for sexual reasons. But I feel like that kind of culture is really creepy sometimes with how it kinda glorifies pedophilia (even in a tongue in cheek way), and probably doesn’t belong on Kazamatsuri.
Also, I think there are respectful ways of talking about sex. Talking about a h-scene from a Key game in a detached way is fine by me (especially if it’s talking about how trash they are). You can talk about sex with a clinical tone, or a psychological/sociological tone, and I won’t personally have a problem.
But yeah, if people are talking about sex because they’re horny, and going into depth there, I think that’s already way beyond the line of acceptable conduct.
How does everyone else feel?
The “L” word and the “P” word really go over my line. This isn’t referring to having a standard Kanbe Kotori figure or watching Non Non Biyori or sharing Key Summer Sale material obviously. How gross and scary it is aside, as mentioned earlier there are probably a few users here who have had horrible pasts filled with potential abuse or damaging harassment or bullying that don’t need any more extra reminders of it. They may be very young and going through this right now for all we know. It doesn’t make any sense for a family environment to glorify some of the worst stuff out there when there are so many other important, fun, relaxing, and enlightening things to talk about instead. It also goes against what Key stands for in the first place.
I’m not against any scientific or psychological discussion as long as it doesn’t border on grossly offensive. While I greatly dislike h-scenes, some VNs are apparently worse without them and facts won’t change just because I wish they could. All this said, I would never think to bring up in-depth talks about money or sex either.
1 Like
So, what exactly do you want?
Randomly posting NSFWs in public channels is discouraged, so it’s not supposed to happen anyway.
Banning all discussions about sex is obviously going overboard, but the way it stands right now, the tendency is that we don’t want to see public talk about sex just for the sake of pleasuring yourself while the rest is fair game.
Next, do we discourage the glorification of pedophilia? I say we totally should.
Do we ban the word “loli” and all content related to it? Absolutely not. That would be tantamount to insulting hundreds of thousands of people and very much uncalled for.
Lastly, we cannot possibly account for every idea, image or word that could remind some users of a horrible personal experience and ban it. The most common and obvious ones, we can mention on the list:
but it’s not supposed to be a long list the way I see it. Therefore, if a user is uncomfortable with the usage of a certain word or topic, this part of the CoC comes in:
And if you feel hurt, excluded or made uncomfortable by the actions of another or the group, speak up! It’s everyone’s job to help each other.
Speak up, explain why it’s a problem and aim for mutual understanding. If it’s a particularly sensitive topic concerning private information you would rather not disclose, I suggest contacting a mod so that they make the request of avoiding specific words in your stead.
1 Like
At the end of the day, I guess this all boils down to empathy. We can’t outright say “don’t talk about lewds” because that’s too blurry a line that we can draw. At the end of the day, if other people start getting uncomfortable with the sort of discussion that is being had, it should be our responsibility to take not of that and work towards making it less uncomfortable for everyone.
I think we’re all in agreement about this though:
Many people are endeared to younger characters in a “must protect” sort of way which is totally acceptable. Although, personally, I’d rather they not be referred to as “loli” if they are literally children (since loli refers to older characters who have underdeveloped features)
1 Like
That is a niche definition that I’m not sure has ever been that widespread… But sure, maybe we should just avoid the term ‘loli’ altogether where possible. Same as with ‘trap’, it comes from a culture of sexualisation.
VNs also come from a culture of sexualisation. You wanna avoid those, too?
Look, the term “loli” is being used on pretty much everything that’s small and female nowadays, regardless of actual age or degree of sexualisation. It’s applicable to way too many characters in everything related to anime. It’s a multi-facetted part of the culture we’re discussing. Trying to avoid the term is like having an amputated limb. It’s doable but super awkward, and so is the atmosphere around it. Besides, treating the term itself as something bad goes against our principle of judging based on intent, not content or wording. It means many things, so why focus on the worst meaning among them?
The trap thing was an extreme case but I’d rather not use the same logic for every potentially misusable term.
2 Likes
HOO BOY SHOTS FIRED
You’re right though. It’s more important to judge on the basis of intent of why the words are used, hence why I kinda snapped recently when they started talking about police sirens etc.
1 Like
There is no point in making extra efforts to specifically protecting children in online communities such as this one. When young people roam the internet, the last thing they want is for strangers to show up and protect them. After all, the internet is one of the few places whey can enjoy freedom and evade the watchful eyes of the adults.
Publicly linking NSFWs is discouraged, so porn is not supposed to randomly jump into people’s faces here. And we all agree that pedophilia is not to be glorified, even as a joke. That is protection enough.
@KaiMiang , I’ll be honest here, but I mean no harm. Please consider this carefully and try not to take this personally. You are free to refrain from using certain terms but if you declare that the very word “loli” is something that children must be “protected” from, you are insulting everyone who uses this word or favors characters this term applies to. And that’s not fair. “loli” is a term for fictional characters in anime-related media. It’s not supposed to be used on real-life people, just as every such term. So why accuse them of mixing up fiction and reality in such a horrible way? It is uncalled for to insist that the term “loli” is directly connected to real-world pedophilia. It has several meanings, many of which are perfectly innocent and positive, like
The same could be said about “trap”, but in this particular case, we have been informed - by people who are knowledgeable about the problematic - that the term is already being used on real-life people to demonize them and to justify acts of violence against them (There’s been some discussion in the spring cleaning topic). So to my understanding, while no Kaza user has ever intended any harm, the word had to be discouraged because it stood at the very center of a real-world problematic and therefore made certain people very uncomfortable.
I feel like we’re getting on a very big tangent here, so if you guys wanna continue this somewhere else feel free to, but I’d like to keep the focus right now on the Code of Conduct.
I think the topic of sex and how to tackle it on Kazamatsuri is something we’ll all need to continue reviewing over time, it’s not something I can give a clear answer on just here. But we need to think about what’s most empathetic, and ensuring that many people feel comfortable at Kazamatsuri, and that requires striking a balance between being too liberal and being too strict.
4 Likes
Very well. But do keep in mind that a part of what I said is relevant for the entire list, as well as the CoC:
I’m sure about 99% of the things said by Kaza members have not, and will not be, said with bad intentions in mind.
However, every discouraged behavior and every word on the bad words list can be interpreted as an implied accusation.
I see where Naoki-Saten is coming from, and as long as there is no obvious negative connections then let’s just leave it at that for now since Aspi put it fantastically, I’m just not in any sort of mind to continue any discussion related to it and REALLY don’t want to.
I’m good with the CoC and mission statements as they stand. 
Is there a timeframe for showing the Dangos at this moment?
Should be first.
Jokes aside I like it as it is, but I have concerns with the following points:
Combined with:
I’m worried that this mortal combination will end up with someone saying they don’t want a certain word being said, even if the word’s meaning is by no means offensive at first sight, and then, if anyone says otherwise, the person can say that they are minimizing their suffering, automaticaly needing a mod to deal with the mess. A mess, I might add, that is pretty common sight around discord from time to time.
Let me show an extreme example:
- Lol, why would you need need a special hammer to hit that nail
+Idk, that’s what my carpentry teacher told me
*Please, don’t talk about hammers and nails, it makes me really uncomfortable
-What, why?
*(Insert traumatic abuse experience involving hammers and nails)
+Well, I’m sorry about that, but they are common objects, we can’t just stop using their names
*Please do stop, it’s a really sensitive subject
-Oh come on, it’s just a hammer!
*You are “minimalising my suffering”
-But it’s not like they are a word that we can avoid
*Idk, just don’t use it, it’s a discouraged attitude anyway
Etc etc etc and a mod had to be called that day.
By no means are these two discouraged behaviours wrongly stated in any way, it’s just their interaction and possible exploitation that I’m concerned about, as it might give unnecessary work to the mods.
Appart from that, I really like this list, I think it was necessary to allow better automoderation and solve problems before they escalate out of control.
3 Likes
A few questions and concerns:
I can kind of understand this one, but I’m a bit confused on where Kaza draws the line.
The other day someone posted Rin wearing a Trump hat, and it was taken down and it seems the Kaza staff had a go at them, though I didn’t get to read their reasoning because it seems the relevant posts have been deleted. But way back, this was posted in Little Busters Memes:
One referenced a political figure and one is referencing a political position, but they’re both “real world political topics” and they’re both jokes. Under what standard was the other one taken down while this one is allowed? The “inflammatory” clause? So… we’re allowed to joke about some political ideas and not others? That seems awfully biased. Again, I didn’t get to read the Kazamatsuri staff’s reasoning, and maybe if I did I would agree with them, but that’s why I’m asking for clarification now.
@Pepe brought up something earlier but there doesn’t seem to have been any further discussion about it:
Under this policy, are we not allowed to talk about the “Make A Change” shirt? Again, I want to ask for clarification on that. The point has since been updated to
but it doesn’t really address this question.
And this is from the new Code of Conduct draft, but I may as well ask about it here:
A free and open marketplace of ideas is my ideal, but it’s obvious Kazamatsri doesn’t share it with me. But at the very least, can we try not to scare people away from speaking their minds out of fear of offending others? Context is what matters. At a time where society gets more angry at someone saying the N word while singing along to a rap than they do at the racist motherfucker who says “I strongly dislike black people”, the language we use should not be as important as the context we use it in. Only one of these hypothetical people used language most people take issue with, yet which one is hate speech? As the god among men, George Carlin, said:
And actually, am I gonna get in trouble just for sharing something with the N word in the title?
So, fair warning, if you’re sensitive to certain words regardless of context, you probably shouldn’t watch that.
4 Likes
I don’t think that post would be considered “inflammatory” because libertarianism isn’t really controversial (as nobody but libertarians pays it any mind) but if this doesn’t fly under the new system I’ll absolutely be willing to take it down.
2 Likes
I think this has more to do with who posted it and the context surrounding the Kinniku podcast than anything. You can have a read at the whole context and part of why that post in particular was taken down here.
That’s my view as well, but even with this new code of conduct and list of discouraged behaviours, I’m pretty sure the old “don’t be a toilet seat cover” and use common sense still aplies.
Be wary of who you’re talking to and who might be reading that conversation at the moment and make sure to back off and apologise if you stepped the line and someone seems to be justifiedly offended by anything you said. Sure thing, you could say that’s censorship and you’d be right in some sense, but at the same time if everyone uses common sense in here pretty much anyone can say anything and be fine so long as they are mindful of the context surrounding the conversation.
3 Likes
Social sensitivity issues are tricky to say the least. We’ve got members from all over the world, coming from different cultural backgrounds and with differing mastery of the English language. From time to time, someone will say something that will offend someone else without realizing. There’s no way to prevent that and I doubt any of us could just up and become an expert in that field.
Therefore, when such an issue arises, what matters is not the evaluation of the issue, but how it’s handled. And in your example, it went down pretty peacefully.
- someone feels uncomfortable and voices their concern - check
- they calmly explain why it’s a problem - check
- the other party respectfully listens to them - check
- the other party acknowledges the concerns and presents their own position - check
- they try to negotiate - check
Even if negotiations don’t work out and a mod gets called in to help out - I think that’s still fine for the first couple of times. Nobody’s getting punished or told off for this, since the effort on both sides to reach an understanding is clearly visible. As I said, the issues are tricky and we don’t have experts. What matters is that we can handle them calmly and with time, the community will learn how to take care of those without involving moderators every time.
EDIT: Addressing one of machel’s concerns
By all means, that is not the intention. On the contrary, we’d like everyone to feel comfortable about speaking their minds. Therefore, please do speak your mind, but also do be aware of the responsibility that comes with it. As I have explained further up in this post, there’s always the risk of someone offending someone else, and also that what matters is how it’s handled. I’m sure 99% of the cases, it has not been said with the intention to offend. Someone is offended by something you said? Talk it out. Calmly.
7 Likes
I’m having a similar issue. I like the rule in theory. But I feel like I saw a whole lot of political “discussion” that wasn’t much more than circle-jerking and/or piling on in the Discord. There was very much an air of “if you agree with the consensus, it’s okay, if you don’t, then it’s an issue.” Which is why I might be nit-picking a tad at the word “inflammatory” here.
This is one of my concerns as well, and ironically, I’ve already got somewhat of an example of this here:
This organically stuck out to me, as although I wouldn’t actively call myself a Libertarian (or any of the traditional American political party lines, for that matter), but I certainly think they have some good ideas. Similarly, I’m much more inclined to vote for them over the other two major options (even while some would say I’m throwing away my vote), and would like to see them actually win positions of power and see what they can do. Because of that, I could say that your passing comment, which although I realize is likely just tongue in cheek banter, is still being dismissive and discouraging to those who might hold those beliefs dear, and therefore insulting.
To be clear, I’m not actually insulted, I just don’t feel that I’m in a position to feel comfortable exactly discussing the “why” of it, because although I don’t find it inflammatory either, someone else might. Which is why I think maybe you guys could consider discouraging all political discourse in general. Because right now, I’m not exactly clear on what political topic wouldn’t be inflammatory. Therefore, it might be best just to come out and say it, as the rule as it stands already implies that private political discussion between consenting members is obviously fine, but is also vague enough that it sounds like some public form of it would be acceptable. Or maybe I’m misinterpreting/overthinking it. I expect and welcome disagreement on this point. But I can’t help but wonder whether or not it really has a place here.
I don’t have any other major concerns. To be honest, I’ve soften my stance after kiraboshi and technololigy explained their positions on why they spoke up when certain words were said. I’m very emphatic to those kinds of issues, and would never purposefully try to make someone feel foolish over a disagreement. However, for me personally, context typically trumps the word used, and I do fear for those who essentially paint a target on their backs by giving words more power over them than I believe they ought to. But I’m also self-aware enough to realize that everyone processes information and emotions differently than I do, so I will of course be respectful of that.
Glad to see this is finally being address, and I appreciate the work you guys have put in. I’d love more clarification on this points I’ve presented, or the challenging on them to see how well they hold up under pressure. Hopefully things will pan out, and I’ll feel comfortable posting on a more regular basis again.
5 Likes
