H-scenes in Visual Novels: Opinions and discussion

Off-Topic
#65

64 posts. Took me a whole day to catch up. Why are you guys this active only when I’m not around? xD

To put it bluntly, I hate H-scenes. Not because of what they are but because of how they are used in VNs.
To this day, I have read 18 VNs. 7 of them did not have any H-scenes. For all 7 of them, the following was the case:

They were great VNs that did not need fanservice.
1 among those 18, namely Saya no Uta, had H-scenes that were justifiable. The game itself was really disgusting (and not even in a negative way), so the H-scenes did not ruin anything and fit well in the overall context and were part of the main cast’s character development.
There was 1 other game, G-Senjou no Maou, where it was necessary to know that ‘sex happened’, but the scenes themselves were unnecesary. The reason being that if the protagonist used heroines as dispensable sex toys rather than treating them as human beings, he would be in for a bad end. And also because sex may cause pregnancy.

Which leaves me with 18 - 7 - 1 - 1 = 9 Visual novels that had completely unnecessary H-scenes which had no other purpose than being pure jerk-off material for deprived otaku. Literally nothing would have changed if those H-scenes would have been excluded and it wouldn’t have mattered if sex happened or not. I hated those H-scenes because the rest of the 9 VNs would, honestly, be better off without them.
And I will name 4 games where the placement of H-scenes, and fanservice in general, was downright disgusting, disrupting, breaking the immersion and completely destroying the mood.
Fate/Stay Night, Muv-Luv, Muv-Luv Alternative and Grisaia no Kajitsu.

Don’t get me wrong. Being an eroge is not a problem itself. But the way the ero was handled in these particular games was just downright obnoxious and it made it way more difficult for me to take the games seriously. I was really like “WTF?!” at moments like

“Saber needs magical power, therefore put it in” (F/SN),

“Blew up our school. Let’s fuck.” (Grisaia),

“Almost got expelled from school for behaving inappropriately outside the school and causing trouble. Were told to go home right now by principal. Immediately going to our classroom and doing the dirty there.”. (Muv-Luv)
And PLEASE don’t get me started on a certain flashback H-scene from MLA.

That has nothing to do with story, character development or plot twists. It’s just porn. Unnecessary, disgusting, dirty porn. The plot of any porn is ridiculous by nature. That’s not a problem per se, that’s just how porn is. But the moment you integrate porn into a serious game plot, the game plot itself becomes ridiculous. All tension and seriousness of the previous scenes get blown away at once. The moment the H-scene begins, all characters involved become completely different people.
And that’s what ruins a part of the overall VN experience for me.

High-five, bro! o/
School Days (anime) made a fine job making the viewers really really mad at certain characters, which is very praiseworthy. And they didn’t go into detail there. Just saying ‘now it happened’ was enough to make people rage.

I hate rule 34 with every fiber of my being. I remember going “WTF?!!!” when innnocently browsing the internet like a decade ago and finding a H-pic of Pokemon characters. Ruined my day. Rule 34 is a big part of why I hate Doujins so much. Some deprived otaku use other people’s works, other people’s characters, change them, make something completely different out of them just in order to satisfy their dirty fantasies.
My opinion of the characters themselves doesn’t change due to rule 34, but I lose about 40% of respect for the authors when encountering a terribly misplaced H-scene.

I was intending on going more in-depth with the (actual) topic, but my post seems already long enough.
So pls someone reply so I can go on ^^

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#66

Totally agree. As I said earlier, context has a lot to do with it.
In something like Saya no Uta, it’s to be expected. It’s a twisted story that is clearly targeted towards a mature audience. The world and the characters are built up in such a way that, yeah, showing what happens in their private time makes some sense. We are as trapped in the protagonist’s head as he is.

In something like Grisaia… a school comedy with a bit of drama, that could easily pass as a dinner-time sitcom, they just threw in H-scenes for the heck of it.

Fate/Stay Night basically said “hey, we have magical fantasy elements! Let’s make a strangely convenient plot point show up just at the right time to justify our H-scenes!”

Back to G-Senjou (love that VN btw) and I’d agree that they didn’t need to show those things at all. The protagonist rarely sees the heroines as actual people. The only develop in a lot of the H-Scenes were along the lines of “You got a bad end! Now look how evil he is!” and really, we don’t need to see that stuff happen to know the Protagonist has fallen too far. Look at that one bad end where you have to choose whether to rape the blond girl. That choice is the biggest impact of the whole scene. The moment where you’re like “I want to 100% but I can’t click that option” still exists even if the H-Scene isn’t shown afterwards. The other H-Scenes were just your typical “they’re in love. Watch them sex each other.”

#67

[quote=“Naoki_Saten, post:65, topic:401”]

“Saber needs magical power, therefore put it in” (F/SN),
[/quote]Haha, thinking back on this scene just makes me laugh. I have to give Type-Moon props for using it as a unique and somewhat plausible plot device, but it was so poorly written and put in such an awkward place that any praise has to be thrown out the window. It goes from 100% serious to 100% erotic within a matter of lines. It would have been a lot better and made a lot more sense if Shirou and Saber actually had that kind of relationship, but even then the stuff with Rin would still be WTF. Even the writers knew it was in bad taste and out of place. I’m pretty sure Shirou’s “I’ll have to treat this like it was a dream” comment was directed at the reader to say “just act like it never happened.”

Yeah, so there’s my rant on that. I’m not sure it caused me to take the game less seriously, but maybe thats because I already knew it was coming

[quote=“Naoki_Saten, post:65, topic:401”]
School Days (anime) made a fine job making the viewers really really mad at certain characters, which is very praiseworthy. And they didn’t go into detail there. Just saying ‘now it happened’ was enough to make people rage.
[/quote]Although some people will say they would have enjoyed the anime more if it was a hentai.

[quote=“Takafumi, post:66, topic:401”]
Fate/Stay Night basically said “hey, we have magical fantasy elements! Let’s make a strangely convenient plot point show up just at the right time to justify our H-scenes!”
[/quote]Again, I would love to say, “Sure, its strangely convenient, but a least it kinda makes sense”, but I can’t because of how much they butchered it. The idea might have been within suspension of disbelief, but the scene itself sure wasn’t.

#68

As I said in my previous post, I hate H-scenes not because of what they are but because of how they are used in VNs. And in most cases, their sole purpose is just pure fanservice. And that really puts me off.
I consider H-scenes and fanservice to be “cheap tricks”. Low-skill, low-investment, low-value elements that yield high returns. I can’t approve of how fancervice users are able to compete with skilled authors who put a lot of effort into actually moving their audience’s hearts on equal ground.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m not denying fancervice its right to exist. I, too, watch anime that are nothing but comedy and fanservice. But they’ll never be more than a way to kill time. They’re not the reason I watch anime and I’d never skip a meal over the likes of them. But it angers me how people welcome fancervice material with open arms, throw money at it, and appreciate it more than works that actually deserve it.

I would never play a VN just for the ero. When people want ero, they go watch porn, end of the story. Visual Novels, however, are modernized books. They have a story to tell. Characters to introduce. They take your mind into a whole new world. And even though many skeptics would deny it - you can learn a lot from VNs. They broaden one’s horizon.

Personally, I really love works of romance. And that’s precisely why I hate it when a random H-scene occurs. Love and Sex are two diffent things that can exist separately and independently.
The former is an emotion that is (almost) unique to humans while the latter is an animalistic instinct, a programmed bodily desire. And while I’m thankful for the existence of instincts, which are pretty much what keeps us alive, individually as well as a race, it also makes us less human. Us humans are, sadly, still slaves to those bodily desires and instincts even though we have the ability to think rationally. Lacking the ability to withstand those desires and succumb to them makes us ‘primitive’. Fanservice takes advantage of that primitivity.

I doubt that all VN producers actually want to produce porn-like material. I’m sure they want to use their creativity and skills to their utmost to create something beautiful. But they’re forced to do otherwise just in order to survive (unless they’re really good.)
Sadly, most consumers of the industry indeed seem to be very primitive. And it’s sad that a very very wonderful industry is dependent on people who let their dirty minds make the decisions. On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with taking their money for products of relatively low effort and skill :slight_smile:

Ok, slowing down now. H-scenes are not evil incarnate. I probably wouldn’t oppose them so much if 99% of those I read (or skipped) weren’t so terribly unnecessary or disruptive. I won’t say that H-scenes should disappear from VNs for all eternity. But it is my honest wish that they would at least become less frequent and placed in a way that would make you facepalm and go into a coughing fit like *coughjerk-offmaterialcough.
And I wish for people who buy VNs to appreciate the genre itself rather than just a specific, primitive part of it.

4 Likes
#69

Now, I can agree with the statement “it’s just porn” (except in the case of Saya no Uta, which has already been argued against my case). Unnecessary, maybe. Disgusting and dirty, I don’t think so. But really that is more of opinion so I won’t continue that argument.

Now the remaining question is: “Do H-Scenes ruin the VN experience”? I really think, and most would probably agree, that they can be written in such a way that the scene and the character isn’t ruined by it. When you have a VN that has H-scenes crammed into it due to necessity, it will more often than not end up ruining the experience. Due to the nature of the industry, publishers will force the writers to push H into their VNs, and when they do that, the writers may have to insert it in a way that is unnatural to the story.

This problem does not have to necessarily occur with H-scenes. For example, if a publisher told a writer: “You should put in an epic battle scene between the protagonist and antagonist”, the writer may be forced to put it into the story without it really fitting in. That would also ruin the experience. But when a writer does think of a story with that in mind right from the beginning, he would probably be able to make it in such a way that it is gracefully done.

On the other side of things, just because they are put in a way that does not ruin things, that does not mean that they are necessary either. I guess your example of G-Senjou explains this (though don’t take my word for it as I have never played it)

Quoting @Bizkitdoh:

This is something I can pretty much agree with :smiley:

1 Like
#70

First of all, I love this ^

[quote=“Naoki_Saten, post:68, topic:401”]
And even though many skeptics would deny it - you can learn a lot from VNs. They broaden one’s horizon.
[/quote]Would love to hear your expanded opinoin on this in Discussion: Is There Real Meaning in Visual Novels

(I could quote all of @Naoki_Saten’s last post here, but that would take up too much time and space)

While we all have differing opinions on what H-scenes are and how they should be used, I think most everyone here seems to agree (correct me if I’m wrong) that what’s truly angering, hate causing, disgusting (and all they other words we’ve used) about H-scenes is that they will always deter a HUGE group of people from ever experiencing any VN, H-scenes or not.

1 Like
#71

Be gone with them. Peace.

H-scenes are merely filer for the pervs out there. I don’t skip them because I might miss development or things related to the plot, but really they don’t have any significance to me. And come one, you’ve only been dating for a day and you’re been going at it already. Where did that come from?

Props to Haru from G-Senjou and her h-scene for having the best line in the history of h-scenes.

A-Are we pro wrestling?

#72

Honestly, I really dislike them most of the time, they just feel so out of place and forced.

I’m fine with them if they feel like they make sense within the story, but otherwise I mostly just skim them. Like, I have nothing against H-scenes in general, but they make the story worse more often than not from my experience. I’m glad Key’s dropped them. Good riddance.

#73

I think the drop of H really works well for most of Key’s VNs. Clannad, while having serious themes, also had a strange childlike atmosphere to it. Everything felt… innocent.
Little Busters was based around innocence! To the characters of the original, simply having fun and saying farewell to all worries was the only thing on their minds. I haven’t read EX, but I imagine it feels very off, as much as the H-content in Kudwaf feels off.
Planetarian again was very innocent. The innocence contrasted with the dark reality of the world.
I can honestly see places where H could have been included in Rewrite, but they left hints and nothing more. They didn’t take a few minutes of the readers time to elaborate exactly on what two characters were doing in their private time.

I actually think the change is largely down to the protagonists. Key were slowly making their protagonists less of a stand-in and more of an actual character. They respect the protagonist’s privacy as much as any other person, whereas a lot of other VN devs like to say “well you are in their head. You can see that stuff.”

2 Likes
#74

I never really thought about it, but you’re right. Rewrite does lend itself well to sex scenes in some of the routes. I can actually see it working really well in Lucia’s route, where the whole idea of Kotarou being intimate with Lucia’s ‘filthy’ body shows how far their relationship has devleoped.. Wow, am I actually vouching for a h-scene?
Well, not exactly. I still don’t think you need to specifically show all the nudity and delve into pornography to show a sex scene. Just look at how M-rated hollywood movies usually handle sex scenes. You can show two characters making love without it being pornography.

I also feel like it was subtly implied that Kotarou and Akane may have had sex at one point in the VN. But maybe I’m looking too deeply into that. They relationship just felt very mature, I guess.

2 Likes
#75

Yeah, the Lucia (she can finally touch someone!) and Akane (It all happened off camera) routes could have had H-scenes and they wouldn’t have felt out of place.
I’m glad they didn’t though~

#76

This is why I feel so many H-scenes are so bad, unnecessary, and mood-destroying. Mind you, I haven’t read either of these^, but I feel that VNs in general spend a lot of time developing and trying to get you to feel connected to characters. And in most cases this all gets thrown out the window once an H-scene starts. Most characters dont seem like they would just suddenly have sex, and even if there has been legitimate and strong relationship development, character personalities often change during the scene.

And let me be clear: when I was defending H-scenes somewhere up there^, I was referring specifically to cases where the scene makes sense based on previous plot and character relationships, provides legitimate character/relationship development, and is set up so it doesn’t ruin the mood. Or when

I actually haven’t ever seen anything like the first description yet, so I can’t give any examples, just didn’t want to my opinions to sound contradicting.

#77

Actually, I have to comment against you in Little Busters. Specifically, I can think of two instances in Little Busters Komari bad end and somewhere in Mio route that practically implied that sex happened. And Haruka route had many opportunities where it could have happened.

But, as @Aspirety said, it doesn’t necessarily have to show the explicit H-scenes. But it could, and it did. Although if the reason was simply to sell it as eroge, then, well, it is what it is.

#78

Oh, I didn’t touch the bad ends, and I never felt Haruka and Riki were close enough. Don’t remember anything like that in Mio’s route either, but I wasn’t paying much attention~

#79

Hey, hey, you serious? Bad ends are part of a VN and also part of the overall emotional impact of a route. “What happens to the girl if Riki fails to support her?” - don’t you want to know that? Additionally, many bad ends in LB yielded the biggest foreshadowings on the secret of the world, especially those in Kud’s and Mio’s routes.

I know exactly what scenes Pepe is referring to despite not having played EX. And while it’s heavily implied in a bad end in Mio’s route (there was 2, btw) that an H-scene has happened, the scene in Komari’s bad end is sometimes referred to as “taking advantage of a helpless, confused girl” and “Damn you, Riki! Damn! Riki!!” by those who’ve read it. Just think of a scene where the “opportunity” most likely exists, but you really wish it didn’t happen at that exact point… And that’s also an example of how misplaced H-scenes ruin the characters…

1 Like
#80

Whats funny is that literally all the scenes you guys are talking do indeed have h-scenes. Komari’s being the most fucked up one based in the situation.

#81

Yeah, uhhh… Geez reminding me about it makes me get pissed off as well.
But yeah, those are examples of how Little Busters, which initially had no H-scenes, had heavily implied sex scenes. It worked fine, and I didn’t feel that it was misplaced either, even though it wasn’t really necessary to the story. So adding in the explicit H-scenes is something that I wouldn’t say ruins it, but adds visualization to the scene. Such visualization being unnecessary, but some people like it anyway.

(yeah this forum won’t let me quote spoilers)
I never really confirmed it because I never played EX, but I do remember reading a Japanese walkthrough of EX and the marked H-Scene in Komari’s route seemed to follow the choices of the bad end. So I guess that pretty much confirms it. Damn you, Key!

#82

I like to pretend Little Busters EX doesn’t exist sometimes.

Memorial Edition? Oh yeah I’m playing that at the moment~

#83

I can only imagine how hilarious the machine translations are for h-scenes.

#84

I’ll let you know now. I’ve played a machine translated patch of Flyable Heart. They were horrid, but looked so beautiful ;-;.