When I say emptiness I don’t mean they don’t have any personality, it’s just that they usually don’t say how they think, their world vision isn’t explored. The only thing that’s explored about them is their feelings. Kotarou is totally different from the other VN protagonists, as he expresses his opinion about a lot of stuff, specially in the common route.
It’s not about what I’ve been reading. Take a look at the majority of monthly eroge releases and you’ll see what I am talking about.
There’s your problem. You are comparing an eroge with a standard VN. They are two different categories.
Most of the VNs I’ve read have had protagonists that were characters in their own right. Kotarou doesn’t really stand out imo. There are much better, and there are much worse. There are even eroge protagonists that have more character.
as someone who actually reads a lot of the eroge released every month, I don’t see what you’re talking about. Unless you’re specifically looking at nukige, the protagonists have been pretty good lately as far as I can tell.
If you can name a specific game and/or character that looks hollow I’ll look into it, but the ones I’ve picked up on my own have not fallen into this pit.
the majority of eroge releases are nukiges, but I’m not talking only about them. As most eroges focus on the heroines, the protagonist rarely gets real focus. And, again, I’m not talking about gary stus here, all I’m saying is that the protagonist’s world view isn’t really explored.
For example: do you know whatis the protagonist’s opinion about abortion? If so, why does he think like that? How does he see the people who don’t think like this? These kind of question is rarely answered for a eroge protag.
if you call visual novel something that has no ero content, then i can agree with you. But in this meaning of the term, there are VERY few VNs compared to the amount of eroge.
I’m gonna quote a protag the everyone knows: Okabe Rintaro. Yes, he has a very outstanding personality compared to other protagonists, but his world view isn’t really explored in the game. We can know a lot about what he feels, but not what his opinion is.
From my definitions of the terms, VNs are non-ero. Branching from VNs are eroge, and branching from eroge are nukige. You get things like Nakige and Utsuge, but they are more plot-related categories than the others.
It doen’t think it really matters if there are very few VNs compared to eroge, there is still a difference. But we can compare Kotarou to eroge protags too if you want. I’ll just list from my VNDB list until I get to one who doesn’t hold up to Kotarou.
G-Senjou
Tomoyo After
Kara no Shoujo
Narcissu
ONE
Tokoyo no Hoshizora
Utawarerumono
And then my love for trashy romance stories gets in the way.
Still, there are lots and lots of VNs that out-do Kotarou. There are lots that are worse, but lots that are better. If you think about it, Kotarou is an incredibly character-less character. He is malleable, and everything he believes and holds dear is defined by the choices you make. He doesn’t have a defined personality outside of the common route, because he becomes so different throughout rewrite.
The Okabe Rintaro we know is a person who doesn’t care about the real world, but not in the way you might think. All he cares about is the people inside his world. Basically, he dedicates himself to the people around him, and doesn’t know what to do when they aren’t there. He believes that everything should have an answer, and that if it doesn’t appear to have one you should search for it. He’s kind of arrogant, and won’t let something go, even if it would be more beneficial to just be a bit lax.
Of course, the tricky thing with choosing Okabe is that he’s from a time travel story. His personality is different over different world lines, and it can be very drastic. Just look at the Gamma and Omega AF. Completely different person.
I think you’re misunderstanding something here. Just because a game relies heavily on sexual content doesn’t make it a nukige. In an average month, maybe 10% of the eroge released are truly nukige, and even then they don’t usually sell well. The market right now heavily favors moege and charage; which as you would expect make up most of the releases.
Alright, I’m gonna have you think about this one for a bit. Have you ever played an eroge with a truly bad protagonist? If so, it probably wasnt a very pleasant experience, and you would probably think harder before you buy another eroge from that developer. Fast forward a few years and that developer is probably not selling very well if they still can’t make a good protagonist because no one wants to play as a bad character. See where I’m going with this? A good(or at least decent) protagonist is all but a requirement nowadays.
I’m pretty sure most of the time you could guess his opinions pretty accurately based off his emotions. If a protagonist is vocal about his opinions then he risks pushing away people that don’t agree with said opinions.
[quote=“Takafumi, post:241, topic:108”]
You are comparing an eroge with a standard VN. They are two different categories.
[/quote]it depends on the context. I’m pretty sure eroge here is just being used as a general term for the medium, in which case a VN would be a specific subcategory of eroge that involves little or no sexual content. Not a big deal though, as I’m slightly confused as to how we’re defining these terms too.
I never said anything about truly bad characters. Even if the protagonist feels kinda empty, doesn’t mean he isn’t decent.
So what is a nukige for you?
Well, you see it like that, but I don’t. His emotions have a limit to what they can show off about his worldview.
While this is true, even if he believed in different things depending of the route, he did believe in something. Change yourself or the world? Why? We got a full extent of his world vision, even if it is very malleable. And I have no problem with this at all, as long as we know the depths of his self (even if there are different selves).
None of the VNs you listed can be called an “average” VN. And when I say Kotarou is the best protag, it’s just my opinion, and it just considers the VNs I’ve already read. As @MalignantSeraph said the market now heavily favors moeges and charages.
While Rewrite was a pretty philosophical VN, the protagonist had to match it, it was no coincidence Kotarou is the way he is. But as moeges and charages usually don’t require such a deep character, we hardly are presented to the way he views the world.
In that case, do “average” VNs get translated?
From what I’ve read, the only titles on my vndb list that didn’t have protagonists with beliefs and opinions are the oelvns and dating sims, neither of which I’d label as “VN.”
Yeah, they do. They weren’t as much before because everyone was focusing on the outstanding titles. When I say average VNs I mean most moeges and some charages. Some that are being translated right now:
*Amairo Islenauts
*Astralair
*AoKana
*Daitoshokan no Hitsujikai
*Clover Day’s
*Koichoco
…
You can see more on fuwazette. Remember: when I say average, I refer to the genre, doesn’t mean it isn’t good.
Okay, I think you are not getting what I mean. They do have beliefs and opinions, but this isn’t very explored. Compare Riki to Kotarou. Riki does have personality, actually his development is the main point of the story. And I like him.
But with Kotarou it’s like that (in the common route, specially): he has a normal, everyday life and he comments his opinion about everyday stuff, and when I say opinion, I don’t mean just one phrase or two. He deeply analyzes the subjects, it’s like we’re inside him.
The way Kotarou narrates is more similar to a book than a VN. Books usually spend a lot of time in “subjects” inside the character’s mind, rather than events.
A nukige is an eroge that is sold explicitly for sexual purposes: aka, its only fap material. Rarely if ever do they have any story or even character development.
[quote=“sillylittlemelody, post:249, topic:108”] Amairo IslenautsAstralairAoKanaDaitoshokan no HitsujikaiClover Day’sKoichoco
[/quote] you understand that none of those are average, right? Just because it’s a moege or charage doesn’t mean it can’t have other elements
Holy shit, did you just call AoKana average? please, tell me where you live so I can move there and buy some anti gravity shoes and play flying circus!
[quote=“sillylittlemelody, post:249, topic:108”]
*Daitoshokan no Hitsujikai
[/quote]you have books that can see into the future there too?
[quote=“sillylittlemelody, post:249, topic:108”]
*Clover Day’s
[/quote]AND its common to have 7 little sisters? wow!
moral of the story: don’t comment on shit you know nothing about.
Daitoshokan alone probably has as much, if not more, supernatural grounding than Rewrite.
So… you mean school-based romance VNs? I’m not sure I see what genre you are talking about.
Would you lump Canvas2 into this? Da Capo? ef? Fortune Arterial? The protagonists for all had strong beliefs.
Oh, I get what you are saying now. Rewrite was a very opinionated VN though. Kotarou has more to say about stuff than anyone I’ve actually met. Someone like Riki feels more realistic. He cares about stuff when it intrudes in his life, but usually he just wants to have fun.
Also, when stuff like that comes up, I’ll usually end up skipping through it. Adding incredibly strong ideals behind a character generally isn’t a good thing to do. Unless you make them dependent on player choices, it can come off as arrogant or annoying. Just look at Emiya Shirou. He had very strong beliefs, and people hated him in at least one route.
@AngelofDeath720 I think you got the idea of this conversation all wrong
Fantasy elements, or plot devices, or cast demographics… Those aren’t what we are talking about. It doesn’t matter if Daitoshokan has more supernatural grounding than Rewrite; we’re talking about protagonists.
I haven’t read those VNs, so I can’t comment on them, but in this discussion you want to talk about the protagonist.
Holy shit, did you just call AoKana average? please, tell me where you live so I can move there and buy some anti gravity shoes and play flying circus!
[quote=“sillylittlemelody, post:249, topic:108”]
*Daitoshokan no Hitsujikai
[/quote]you have books that can see into the future there too?
You’re not getting what I call “average”. I think I just used the wrong word. Sorry, English is not my first language. What I mean with “average” is not a bad VN or a VN with no supernatural. I’m just talking about genre and structure.
Rewrite is not “average” because it’s all-ages.
AoKana and Daito as well as the other VNs have some similarities: a branching plot, character-based routes, romance, comedy, H-scenes and is not considered a “global kamige”… Almost all VNs have these traits. When I say “average” I just mean a VN that has shares some basic elements with most VNs. It can be an awesome game, or a terribly bad game. This doesn’t matter. It can have supernatural and it can be pure slice-of-life.
Not exactly school-based, but yeah, all these could be counted in. G-Senjou could fit in my description, but I don’t call it “average” because it’s a kamige for almost everyone that plays it.
And actually, correcting my statement, Utawarerumono can count as “average” too. But since you understood what I was referring to about the protagonists, it doesn’t matter anymore.
you might want to check where these posts are. This topic is open to any and all things Visual Novel; and if you couldn’t already tell, I am not happy with the direction its been going today.
[quote=“sillylittlemelody, post:254, topic:108”]
G-Senjou could fit in my description, but I don’t call it “average” because it’s a kamige for almost everyone that plays it.
[/quote]so you’re saying that if people think it’s really good then it’s not “average?” that’s pretty biased, don’t you think? not to mention, AoKana and Daitoshokan were both some of the most popular games in the years they came out, meaning that they wouldn’t be included in this list either, right?
[quote=“sillylittlemelody, post:253, topic:108”]
When I say “average” I just mean a VN that has shares some basic elements with most VNs.
[/quote]so… literally every VN ever then, right? because the medium as a whole shares a lot of traits with all of it’s games.
Um… Yes, they were very popular, but every year there are some popular games. I’m talking about a game that’s much more popular or something that’s “special” to the point that it changes the other games succeeding it or even creates a whole new genre.
Daitoshokan played a pretty big role in making the moege and charage market what we see today. you’d be surprised how many VNs recently have taken things from it. Also, AoKana has barely been out for 3 months now, so we can’t really look at it’s effects yet, but I wouldn’t be the slightest bit surprised if it starts a new genre.
this is what I meant when I say you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Whatever. I don’t think this discussion will lead us anywhere, since I just created this term to explain the differences among the protagonists. Now that @Takafumi explained what I meant,
You guys seem to have pretty much resolved this, but hey, I’ll throw in my 2¢:
Umm, sorry for being kinda blunt, but why do you even care? It would probably bug me more if the protag did start talking about this. Unless he’s reflecting on something relevant to the story, characters, etc., I really don’t want to hear about what he thinks about global warming, or infant mortality rate, or regressive taxes.
[quote=“Takafumi, post:245, topic:108”]
VNs are non-ero. Branching from VNs are eroge, and branching from eroge are nukige. You get things like Nakige and Utsuge, but they are more plot-related categories than the others.
[/quote] Typically (most especially outside of Japan) when people refer to eroge they’re referring to the visual novel kind. Technically though, any game with sexual content is an eroge. However, you can’t really say the term “visual novel” only refers to the non-ero kind, especially since so many VNs are eroge, and so many eroge are VNs. I mean, you’re allowed to think about things however you like I guess, but I dont think there’s really a term that refers specifically to VNs with no sexual content, besides just specifying that its all-ages.
@AngelofDeath720 I don’t care what those two think about your discussion, I laughed.
