Discussion: Is There Real Meaning in Visual Novels?

Off-Topic
#44

I don’t think that’s the case. White Album 2, Tari Tari, Vanishment, Honey and Clover, and so on~ Some people would even say NagiAsu or Kokoro Connect… I wouldn’t though >.> It’s just a lot easier to make a school idol anime and gain millions of fans.

I think you are going down the wrong route by using the term “mature.” Being able to work as a Live Action film doesn’t necessarily mean it is mature and realistic. I wouldn’t say F/Z or Psycho-Pass take inspiration from real humans. I loved Fate/Zero, it certainly worked on it’s characters, but I think there is a disconnect between the characters of the Fate franchise and humanity.
I never got far into Psycho-Pass, so I can’t say much about it~ If it improved later on then you might be right.

It seems like it is hard to balance it all. Focus on the world and the realism, or focus on the story? Almost all Ghibli films lack story, and the few that do have some story aren’t great.

As I said before, a greatly exaggerated example of what I mean by having a disconnect between the characters and humanity, is to watch something like DRAMAtical. You could even go watch Canvas: Motif of Sepia if you want to suffer.
They have massive flaws all over, not just the antisocial nature, but elements of the awkwardness can definitely be seen in a lot of other anime.

#45

Sorry, haven’t seen any of those except Kokoro Connect, which I didn’t think was mature or had realistic characters. (Not that that means it wasn’t a decent anime)

Yeah I realize that. I meant to just use that word once and then mostly talk about realism but as I said, I erased everything several times.

[quote=“Takafumi, post:44, topic:414”]
Being able to work as a Live Action film doesn’t necessarily mean it is mature and realistic.
[/quote]I disagree with you on that. I think that in order to be convincingly played by a real person, a character must seem real to a certain extent.

[quote=“Takafumi, post:44, topic:414”]
It seems like it is hard to balance it all. Focus on the world and the realism, or focus on the story? Almost all Ghibli films lack story, and the few that do have some story aren’t great.
[/quote] I think what I’m pointing out by my examples is that you don’t necessarily need a realistic world to have realistic characters. Take super hero movies. Those kinds of powers, etc. are not realistic. But point is that they are all still human, or at least feel like/want to be human.

I would never say, “F/Z is a realistic anime” because its not. But I think I could probably put myself in almost any of the character’s situations and acted similarly. And lets make this clear: We will see what ufotable does with F/SN, but for now my “realistic characters” tag does not extend to the rest of the Fate series.

Don’t get me wrong, I think Miyazaki’s and Hisoda’s works are also really great exmples.

Also, sorry for using only Urobuchi examples. Complete coincidence. I could list several others instead (Baccano, Satoshi Kon films, etc), but I heaven’t seen any of them so I can’t really back that up anyway.

[quote=“Takafumi, post:44, topic:414”]
watch something like DRAMAtical
[/quote]Dropped this after 2-3 episodes. Its really bad

Wow, that was a lot longer than I thought it was going to be

#46

Wow. You’re missing out~ :stuck_out_tongue:
I wouldn’t say Kokoro Connect is either, but I wanted to take some cheap shots at the people who think it’s characters are well written, hence the “I wouldn’t though.”

That’s a very obvious statement. I think that in order to be convincingly presented in an anime, a character must seem real to a certain extent. Anything has to seem real to an extent in order to be convincing.

Actors can be as fake as any fictional character. The only difference between the two is our perception of what is real and what isn’t. This has pretty much been proven in the past over and over again. It all comes down to how the film is directed, and how the actors behave. Sure shows like Avatar or Dragonball (Extreme examples, but examples nonetheless) have been made into live action films, but it doesn’t mean they were realistic.

Keep in mind that live action movies don’t always focus on making a character “be convincingly played by a real person.” It’s hard to compare the two, but the live action scene has the same problem as the anime scene. In the end, a character in an movie adaption of a book, is the same as a character in an anime adaption of a VN, LN or manga. They are text given a form or a voice by another person.

I think that’s really a staple of the genre though. A super hero movie is usually either complete trash mindless action, or a story of a superhero’s struggle to become “human” in some way… Really, it’s an easy ticket to make realistic characters. The powers don’t matter in this discussion - I’m not arguing about the realism of fantasy.
The characters themselves have to be realistic. They can have as many inhuman characteristics as they want, but they still have to be a person… otherwise they are just something that fills a role.

#47

Hmmm, maybe we are misunderstanding each other. What kinds of qualities would make you say: “This anime is realistic”?

I think we might be agreeing and we don’t realize it.

The other thing is, lets not forget that anime is often supposed to be unrealistic in some ways. Part of whats so great about the medium is that it can use stories and characters that are very different and often even impossible in live action.

#48

We’re talking about slightly different things. As I said…

I’m not talking about it using “stories and characters that are very different and often impossible in live action.” I’m talking about characters that just don’t feel right. They don’t feel like people. They are just a thing on the screen.
You can have impossibilities in a realistic anime. Going back to Ghibli, that’s what a lot of their films are about - using impossibilities to enhance the realism of the show. Using talking animals, fantasy creatures, or mysterious magics in a way that people can still relate to.
I’m not saying fantasy is unrealistic. I’m saying characters are.

#49

I’m sorry. Maybe its because I’ve seen comparatively so much less anime (As we know, I like to pretend I’ve seen a lot more than I have), but I’m starting to become confused by all this. I definitely see the really unrealistic characters (e.g. DRAMAtical, characters molded into archetypes), and I see how some directors like Miyazaki can be really good at portraying very real people. But I feel kinda lost in the in-between. I guess I don’t really feel that as many anime have unrealistic characters as you seem to think. Maybe I’m just less critical than you?

#50

Normal is boring.
Nobody would care to watch a normal person’s normal everyday life. There would be literally zero story and no notable characters in there. I’m definitely not your average Joe, but I bet I wouldn’t be able to get anyone to watch an anime based on my life even if I paid them for it.

So in order to make things interesting, you either need a bunch of unusual (not-normal) characters or an unusual situation or setting to put your characters into (or both). And I guess this is where it happens that some authors, in an attempt to create unusual characters, end up making them unrealistic.

But let’s be honest: creating something unusual is a tough job, especially when it exceeds your own life experience. How would a mother who had her children stolen from her by a secret organization feel when trapped in a giant underwater building? How the heck would I know?? It’s never happened to me or any of my acquaintances and probably never will. But it does sound kinda interesting, so an author just might give it a shot. He can try and use some remotely related material as a reference, but there’s no sure-fire recipe to make fictional characters behave realistically in a totally messed-up situation that’s unfamiliar even to the author.

On a side note: Even if you’re totally inexperienced as an author, you can still produce remotely popular works as long as you can draw in viewers/readers that are similarly inexperienced. Write down your fantasies instead of something based on your own experiences. Inexperienced viewers or readers won’t be able to tell you’re being unrealistic. And I think that’s what “The problem of the anime industry nowadays is that there’s too many otaku” was referring to. You can sell a low-quality product well and even compete with high-quality ones if the majority of your clientele can’t tell the difference.

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#51

This^ is a really good point and I totally agree. I feel like at some point I was trying to say parts of this but instead it probably got lost… somewhere. Thank you.

#52

Idk about you, but Non Non Biyori was a completely normal anime about normal people doing normal things; and that was a really good anime.

coughcoughswordartonlinecoughcough Imeanwut?

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#53

It was a little bit silly in a very special way and had some severe wackiness to it- But it was fantastic without being supernatural or anything or having in massive plot piece other than the joys of childhood, etc.

#54

Didn’t watch that one. So, are all characters in there ‘normal’? If they are, it’s hard to imagine the anime being as good as you describe it.

I was actually referring to Mahouka and Mahou Sensou, but SAO does belong to the same category. Though I do think the SAO author has some really good ideas here and there, so it’s still possible to take the anime seriously at times.

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#55

you’d be surprised. its basically just a group of kids hanging out with each other, but its really fun to watch.

Hmm… I’m actually really enjoying Mahouka, but that’s probably due to the fact that it has one of my favorite concepts at work. I guess when I think about it the author probably isnt the best. I haven’t watched Mahou Sensou though, and I definitely agree that the author of SAO has some pretty good ideas.

#56

Non Non Biyori is not normal. There certainly isn’t anything supernatural, but I would not call them “normal people”. It is not like, as you said, an anime based on your life. I find it to be very reminiscent of Nichijou, if you’ve watched that.

The other thing is, lots of people do find SOL to be boring, even when the characters aren’t “normal.” I personally think its fine, just not my favorite.

AND to bring this all back on topic, do you guys think that anime and VNs have more meaning to you when characters are more… realistic, normal, relatable, etc.?

#57

To be fair, it’s more ‘visual novels’ and not ‘anime’, however this question is still a good one if you just change that. :stuck_out_tongue:

#58

My friend only watches anime that are like that. Daily Lives of Highschool Boys is his favorite anime because it’s essentially just hanging out with friends at school all over again.

I find (as a teenager) that both dramas and slice-of-life comedies fall under the “normal everyday life” category.

#59

But the characters aren’t ‘normal’. As I stated before,

I’m not saying it’s gotta be supernatural or anything. Characters with weird, excentric personalities, geniuses, etc. (and these are only the extreme cases) also count as not normal.
So with anime like Daily Lives of Highschool Boys, it’s not the setting but the characters that are unusual (there’s barely a single normal person in there). It’s still not a normal person’s normal everyday life. There might be a third component in there that you could skew (as in un-normalize) in order to make even normal characters in normal situations interesting. But normal definitely is boring.

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#60

I guess it depends where you live? The reason me and my friend liked it so much is that we could say we did almost everything they did.

Are Visual Novels Games? Discussion
#61

Nice topic!

I agree. There’s plenty of scientific evidence. Maybe one can use a VN as a training, or some kind of soft therapy in some cases (if the novel was good enough). Jun Maeda studied psychology, right?
I can always feel that there are glimpses of psychotherapy, but also other sciences. And philosophy.
For me, it is more than a game. It delivers fun/entertainment… but it is also more. Why not both? (like Pepe stated) .

The only problem with VN (and almost anything in life) is when you get caught up inside a VN and forget about your own life experiences…

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#62

(link to his post here) Planetarian - General Discussion

Yup, I have also used a VN (Katawa Shoujo) for a presentation for psychology class. We were talking about paraphilia. And a friend of mine sent me a photo of another presentation in which they used Dramatical Murder (and a shirtless macho-pair image on the presentation… I really don’t know what was it about).

Oh, and I remember once quoting Steins;gate for a religion class essay. I think it was this quote (It’s not really a spoiler) “The fish that lives in the sea doesn’t know the world in the land. It also ruins and goes if they have wisdom. It is funnier that man exceeds the speed of light than fish start living in the land.”

You can learn many things by reading VNs just in the same way they say you become smarter by reading books (not entirely true, but generally consented; it depends in what you read).

So what are your stories? Have you used VNs for school/academic purposes?

#63

Most fantasies are constructed mainly with reality. A creator of fiction uses parts of reality that mean something to them. People find meaning in different things, and that’s why there’s so many different kinds of fiction. Some will mean nothing to you and some will mean a lot.

The idea that there’s no meaning in any art form is absurd, these things aren’t just created in a void.

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