CLANNAD - Tomoyo Sakagami Route & Character Discussion

Key Discussion
#82

I honestly think it’s a very good trait in Tomoya to be so considerate of Tomoyo as to break up with her, even if she doesn’t want to herself. Tomoyo’s personal love just can’t be judged to be worth as much as the personal success she might have had without Tomoya.

They can’t be together due to the vast differences in where they should both inevitably end up in the first place for political reasons. Maybe you remember
(after story) the after story, where Tomoya doesn’t get his promotion because his father was dealing drugs? If she were to become some company chairman or try to get into politics, being married to some dumb deadbeat isn’t going to work out for her.

The painful rumours in school and her own lack of discipline in dealing with Tomoya is just a foreshadowing of what might happen if she tries to drag Tomoya with her to the top. Tomoya knew that Tomoyo would obviously choose him over anything else, so he would undeniably be getting in the way of her personal success. He breaks up with her because he too values her personal success more than their love. And I think that’s a great thing.

#83

“I hate this girl, so I don’t want her to be successfull” is what it sounds like to me. Talented and successfull people exist in real life, too. Being good at stuff doesn’t make them less of a person.

Tomoyo is good at beating up delinquents. What does she gain from that? Delinquents make a raid on her school and almost ruin her career.
Tomoyo is good at school and sports. What does she gain from that? Position of the student council and everyone’s admiration. But they also stop seeing her as a human being and start telling her not to spend time with her boyfriend like it’s their business and try to tear them apart.

This is a very important distinction. Everyone in the story, including Tomoya treats Tomoyo like she’s perfect, but the reader can clearly see her flaws, because she obviously isn’t.

Tomoyo is lacking common sense and can’t read the mood. What does she gain from that? She damages her own reputation, making it harder to become the student council president. Later, she makes mistakes that get blamed on her boyfriend, further damaging their relationship.
Tomoyo is bad at understanding people. Even though her and Tomoya are on the same wavelength, she never understood how painful their relationship has been to him and why. What does she gain from that? Her boyfriend never regains his self-esteem, decides that he’s not good enough for her and breaks up with her.

What good are her talents if her poor decisions end up stopping her from reaching their goals? In the end, it’s always Tomoya who makes the “right” call and keeps her from failing.

4 Likes
#84

I wish I could give you 5 likes for that post lol. But yeah this:

Is further strengthened by the phone call, with Tomoya hinting so much and Tomoyo simply not getting it. She even thinks that it’s because he feels bad about not being able to kiss, which is kinda pitiable.

#85

That’s not what it is, I don’t know how much I can repeat myself to stress that the problem with it is that she cannot fail ANYTHING she wants to do.
That’s unbelievable and dumb.

Tomoyo not getting it. Aka, being completely incapable of being about to see what other people think.
Aka being a self centered pile of trash.

#86

Doesn’t that technically make her not a Mary Sue anymore? Like, I really do get why you would dislike her because of something like that. But I think it’s wrong to apply that sort of label.

1 Like
#87

The problem with a Mary Sue is the combination of being near perfect(Making a character actually perfect is impossible really) and having the writing and characters act like the little flaws they have don’t exist.
The writing in Tomoyo’s route acts like a lot of her huge personality flaws either don’t exist, or worse, treat it as a positive trait.

I can’t like her because those flaws don’t shiggy with my diggy. The game repeatedly telling me ‘hey you should like her look how amazing she is’ after that fact is only going to fester the dislike. If someone has a dick up your butt and it’s uncomfortable, you don’t want them leaning over your shoulder going ‘WOW I’M REALLY DEEP IN THERE’ repeatedly do you?

#88

Personal opinion: characters do act like they don’t exist, but the writing sure doesn’t. Like I said, I personally did not feel like the game was trying to make me think she was perfect because I thought it was all too apparently pointing out her flaws (enough for me to blame her for many things)

#89

You make a good point Kanon, it would have been interesting if Tomoya had actually called Tomoyo out on how short-sighted and naive she can be. I don’t think that it really makes her as unbearably awful as you’re making out though.

1 Like
#90

It points them out, but as I keep saying, I feel like it tries to spin them all into a positive thing at the same time.

He did. She bushed it off as not important.

#91

Sorry I’m still catching up with this route after being ill, though I’ve read the vn three times before this.

If that’s true then how can you say that the vn “acts like a lot of her huge personality flaws don’t exist”?

1 Like
#92

How many times to I have to say ‘the vn often tries to pretend they’re a positive trait instead’ before it catches on.

In this example, completely ignoring Tomoya’s valid advice is treated not as being a self centered little ball of garbage who needs to rethink how she treats people, but as being so confident in herself in taking on any challenges on her own that it’s something to admire.

#93

You’re putting all of her positive traits together, pointing at them with a finger and saying “Look, she’s Mary Sue.”
Then you’re pointing at her negative traits and saying “Look, she’s shit.”
Pretty unfair, don’t you think? And isn’t that a contradiction? You can do that with any character but it’ll never make sense. If she’s got bad traits, she can’t be perfect. If she’s self-centered, she can’t be Mary Sue.

Basically, you fell for a “trick” you’re not even supposed to fall for. We’re seeing the story from Tomoya’s point of view. Tomoya sees Tomoyo as perfect. The VN itself does NOT do so. You’re not supposed to agree with everything a depresed teenager with an inferiority complex says and thinks. Tomoyo’s weaknesses are in plain sight. You’re free to judge them as you see fit. Nobody’s trying to push a certain opinion on you. It’s misplaced hatred if you despise Tomoyo for what other characters are picturing her as.
The route’s main conflict happens precisely because everyone’s idolizing Tomoyo as something that she isn’t and Tomoyo’s flaws are what’s causing things to go from bad to worse for Tomoya.

Success is not evil and Tomoyo is actually failing pretty hard. She bit off more than she could chew. She couldn’t coordinate having a boyfriend and being the stuco prez at the same time, so she was failing at both. Only when Tomoya took the bullet for her a couple of times, then dumped her (is that a success as well?) and made her focus on one thing did she actually manage to get stuff done. It’s really not that hard to see that Tomoyo didn’t succeed all on her own. She got where she is thanks to Tomoya. Who had the idea of challenging sports clubs to boost Tomoyo’s popularity? Tomoya did. What do her athletic skills matter if she can’t come up with a way of using them for her goal? Who took the blame for Tomoyo’s screw-ups? Tomoya did. Who made the decision of breaking up because things weren’t working out? Again, Tomoya did.

Why did Tomoya suffer? Because Tomoyo wasn’t perfect enough. She couldn’t handle all of her tasks. She was trying to be Tomoya’s emotional support but didn’t manage to. A Mary Sue would just accomplish everything perfectly and nobody would be hurt.

4 Likes
#94

The problem with what you’re saying Kanon, and the reason you could argue it forever, is that you keep coming to “The VN wants me to think this, the VN wants me to think that.”

That kind of logic is impossible to argue against because it’s based on your own assumption. I don’t think the VN wants you to think Tomoyo is perfect, I don’t think it discourages you from criticizing her character, I’ve never gotten that feeling at all. When discussing literature you have to assume that the writer is neutral unless you are able to support a possible bias they could have by presenting information on the author’s life (or statements they have made) as context. We have no way of knowing what the writer wanted us to think about Tomoyo. Believe it or not, most writers like their readers to have mixed opinions about the characters.

#95

Oh. Ok.

We have a different perception of what constitutes being a Mary Sue. This conversation can’t really work if we’re doing that.

I will say I’ve backed myself into a couple of corners by throwing the word ‘perfect’ around too much. Of course I don’t mean literally perfect, but she’s treated as close e damn nough that I chose the word to describe her.

No, it’s a dislike for the writing making her the majestic creature she is that is the source of the mary sue bullshit.
It dislike Tomoyo for her shithead personality aside from that.

Well I mean that flopped because she’s an ignorant little shit who clearly only saw the council as tools for her goal and simply could not comprehend that hey maybe they have thoughts arn’t arn’t just a tool for her ends and DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHY I FIND HER PERSONALITY SO DETESTABLE? OH MY GOD WHY DON’T YOU PEOPLE GET THAT I THINK SHE’S A TOTAL SHITHEAD IN HERSELF AND THE FACT THE GAME CONSTANTLY GOES OUT OF IT’S WAY TO PRETEND THE SUN SHINES OUT OF HER ARSE IS EXTREMELY ANNOYING TO ME WHO DOESN’T EVEN THINK SHE’S GOOD AT ALL.
God it’s like talking to the exact brainless characters that suck her dick in universe.

#96

Bingo. It’s either real or fake.

Then you’d just be outright wrong…[quote=“Kanon, post:87, topic:1934”]
The game repeatedly telling me ‘hey you should like her look how amazing she is’ after that fact is only going to fester the dislike.
[/quote]

I didn’t see that in the VN’s text. I think you got the wrong impression from the route. You’re too much of a Tomoya.

I’d say it is confidence. Overconfidence. She believes that she can balance both Tomoya and her aspirations… Which she obviously can’t. Again, she’s bad at getting her thoughts across, so it comes across sounding more blunt than would be fitting for her character.

I think it’s easy to forget that the person telling you this story is also a character. We know that things we read seem different when described by other characters.

People are doing it with the “society” thing too. It’s weird.[quote=“Kanon, post:95, topic:1934”]
Well I mean that flopped because she’s an ignorant little shit who clearly only saw the council as tools for her goal and simply could not comprehend that hey maybe they have thoughts
[/quote]
You make it sound like a flaw! Gasp

Tomoyo didn’t care about the council. She cared about her family and Tomoya, and she wanted to live up to the stories she heard of Misae. She wanted to make the school better, but for herself. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. Again, this goes back to a “I don’t like that type of person” talk, which is really pointless.

#97

~ah the discourse~

It’s clear that none of you are going to change anyone’s opinions of Tomoyo as a character. I can understand why Kanon dislikes her and respect that because it’s not baseless. Different interpretations of the same material are still valid, after all. And while I generally like Tomoyo, I’ve never found her to be my favorite or even close to my favorite, so it’s interesting to see the discussion from more of a middle ground.

We can all admit that Tomoyo has flaws, but I feel it is true that the VN never really puts too much of a focus on them. Since it’s being narrated from Tomoya’s perspective, that would certainly have a lot to do with it, but it was a writing decision to make him focus so much more on his own doubts about their relationship because of his status and behavior.

I feel there could have been a bit more balance in that relationship with a bit less idolizing and more acknowledging and accepting of each others flaws. I think that comes from both directions too. Despite admonishing him for being tardy and skipping class, Tomoyo almost thinks as highly of Tomoya as he does of her. Sure, love will do this, but I feel like they could have had a healthier relationship and less drama if they stopped putting each other on pedestals. This is probably why I enjoyed their platonic relationship better than their romantic one.(Then again, you need to have some sort of conflict and dsyfunction in order to have an interesting story, because if there’s nothing to overcome it’s boring.)

7 Likes
#98

In regards to if saving the trees was was selfish or selfless…I think you can say it is more selfless than selfish. There is a kernel of selfishness anytime someone establishes something they care about enough to fight for it. I mean, this is kind of a debate that is going to depend on your perspective on what makes something selfish, but for me I feel like I would only really call it selfish if the benefit to getting rid of them really outweighed keeping them.

#99

I don’t think there was any selflessness to it. Tomoyo’s goals were almost always for her own benefit.

Wait, I’m confused. What was the benefit to keeping them?

1 Like
#100

A trail of Trees like that would have been a town historical site of sorts and being it is on the main path to the school they are probably memorable for most students. Its like if you were you going to get rid of a park for new development, it might even be a good thing you want to build, but it it is probably better if it is done somewhere else.

It is not like it was Tomoyo vs the rest of the student body. And she said the trees were part of her platform for becoming student council president so there is enough reason to think the students agreed that they should stay. Tomoyo was probably one of the first students who had enough of personal interest in saving the trees to rally and motivate the people who wanted the same thing.

I guess rather than thinking it was “selfless” i just don’t think it was a just a “selfish” act.

(sorry for the double post. I have deleted it now. I should have when it was first brought to my attention that a post like that should have been an edit)

#101

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