She doesn’t HAVE to fix them, she’s not in the wrong…? That’s the point- “Wow I wasted so much time for this, now I’ve learned, I’ll be with you, here, now.” Literally the wrong is accepting those issues and fitting the mold to achieve your destiny as other people see and not how you yourself truly see it.
Well… Allow me to specify.
Society specifically saw Tomoya as a burden to Tomoyo because he was “getting in the way” of her student council duties. She would consistently shirk her responsibilities just to have more time to spend with Tomoya. What society didn’t realize is that it was Tomoyo who was bringing that own burden upon herself. Alas, because society’s eyes are jaded, they were quick to blame Tomoya for pretty much everything.
Now if Tomoyo knew how to juggle both her responsibilities as a student council president and as a girlfriend properly, they would have nothing to complain about regarding her relationship with Tomoya. However, because Tomoyo is so dense to society’s issues against her, she didn’t see it as as much of an issue as they did, and thus she would continue causing trouble both for the council and for Tomoya.
That is Tomoyo’s fault, as a character. It’s definitely wrong to accept the notion that “Tomoyo should ditch Tomoya because he is holding her back”, but she still could have achieved her goals while still continuing her relationship with Tomoya if only she wasn’t so dense to her own responsibilities.
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I don’t classify Tomoyo as a MarySue, but I guess I can kind of see the case that is trying to be made. Like the definition cited above I the definition of MarySue probably varies a bit from person to person, but I always took it as girl who was written in a way to always do the best or coolest thing for the moment regardless of personality or laws of physics. Tomoyo is strong, and good at school, and cute, but she stays true to how her character is written throughout the route - even when it shows her being rash or generally rough around the edges. Being generally good at academics and sports doesn’t stretch my mind much and I think she is generally well characterized. At the moment I guess I kind of that maybe in her route the “stakes weren’t that stakey” which is to say compared to the mystery of Yukine’s interesting friends and tragic turns in Kotomi’s route I don’t think this route seems kind of mundane in comparison. I still liked it and thought it was sweet, but it probably could have used a conflict that would have allowed Tomoya to be more actively involved with the resolution.
Tomoyo is not the only character who’s strength is played for comedic effect - that is just kind of thing that happens in Clannad. I feel like if they set up a fight between Nagisa and Sunohara the writers would find a way to send him flying.
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Basically you can classify a “Mary Sue” as a sort of power fantasy.
- Is she automatically liked by people who barely know her?
- Is she able to do literally everything she tries without any sort of challenge?
- Do people fall in love with her for no reason at all, sometimes as soon as they meet?
Those are basically the big three traits of a “Mary Sue” except that character archetype is often more used for male characters than female characters, but it’s only looked down upon when it’s a female character.
Batman can be considered a Gary Stu.
- Automatically liked by people who barely know him.
- Is able to literally do anything he tries because money. (Including fighting Superman)
- Has romantic interests who fall in love with him for no reason, sometimes as soon as they meet.
Granted this character archetype is heavily subjective, and that’s why it’s never a good idea to classify a character under this archetype unless you’re reading a twelve year old’s self insert fan fiction.
Yes, Tomoyo has somewhat “superhuman” traits, but rarely do these come up during the dramatic moments in her route. They remain solely in the confines of the comedic sections of the game. Outside of those, she just happens to be athletic and academic, but she has flaws that get in the way of her relationships and sometimes even directly hinder her ability to accomplish what she sets out to do. She’s by no means a perfectly written character, but she’s nowhere in the veins of what should be classified a “Mary Sue”
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Why is it that Tomoyo’s inability of managing both studend council and relationship with Tomoya a fault as a character?
Tomoyo isn’t perfect, no matter how much they try to enphasize that she is a Mary Sue, she just can’t date Tomoya at the same time as trying to save the Sakura’s trees, it’s really difficult to stop a city project with just the position of student council president.
When I was reading the route, I thought that Tomoyo understood that she can’t manage both of them, but she was trying to deny it until Tomoya put the foot down and decided to break up, even though it was better to just separate until she saved the Sakura’s trees (stupid couple, creating drama for no reason).
Neither do I, I’m not Sunohara.
But look at the words used to describe him, frankly, a sentence like that belongs in a King Kluck game. They made the kind of sentence Rabla would think up while half asleep to describe the most unlikely opponent for her to beat just so she could effortlessly destroy him to prove a point that is already completely established. It’s idiot and childish and had no reason to exist other than to shove ‘TOMOYO-SAN SURE IS GREAT’ up the readers ass further, stuff like that stains the otherwise solid writing.
I didn’t say no depth, I said the depth of a sonic fan character, aka ‘is better than you and cool’.
You call it naive, I call it self centered.
See that’s the worst part, because the writing will twist those glaring flaws into something positive, like turning how she’s a self centered little shit into ‘uh muh such determination’, it’s infuriating enough to wake my Inner Beast.(Hi Bonecuss, it’s been a month since I wrote this post but you finally finished Tomoyo and came here, at least you get this)
I will hold for now and wait for routes to decide that, Kyou’s dictionary shit strikes me as actual strength for comedy though, where as I’m expected to be impressed and in awe at Tomoyo’s display of strength.
And that’s why she’s self centered, she refused to even entertain the prospect of the issues her future would have with Tomoya, because it’s not something she’d ever thought of.
M9
I agree.
But Tomoyo is second top in the school(Behind genius girl Kotomi, who being top is important to her character) and is better than the entire team combined of every single sport in the school, most of which she has never played before.
That’s not being good at academics and sports, that’s being unrealistically stupid.
Everyone keeps trying to justify her superpowers with comedy, I won’t fall for it, if you choose not to have her effortlessly destroy people who have spend there entire school life doing something, she doesn’t become President, her superpowers are something the good ending demands must be exploited for a serious reason.
They’re used for comedy, it is not their primary purpose.
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This is true. They do kind of play her sports powers to be superhuman when you think of that, I always just think of the Sunohara kick combos and forget about the sports teams. I guess it didn’t really bother me because she did not play an all out game against them - just a set of weird challenges and it was a short (though important) part of her route so I kind of glossed over it.
Doing the common baseball route kind of mentally prepared me for it too probably as watching the rag tag team stumble to a win - even Fuko was useful - it kind of set the story up as being the kind of story where the main characters win because the have character designs and are thus superior.
Still, even if it didn’t bother me I can see why Tomoyo Super Sports Star could be thought of as annoying/ too convenient.
Nahhh I think that’s all bullshit, personally. Those people wouldn’t care either way about if she gave him no time or did as she did- They would simply find a way to force her full devotion and shun away Tomoya to any end that isn’t them spending time with one another. Not even them understanding him would prevent ‘she’s good and anything she does with you is a not good thing’.
Council and society wants their machine at maximum capacity, Tomoya wants her, she DOES want to give everything she has for one end which requires a great deal of effort but wants Tomoya to be there with her despite their lives being spun in different directions, and is simply a ridiculous feat on its own. Can she not juggle the two? No, she can’t. Would she if she did things differently? No, she wouldn’t!
She does showcase self-centeredness, yes. It is not a good trait, it’s a flaw, she has this and it’s large because realism. Just what’s hard to read is that she also is certainly selfless but so much so it’s not actually good for her because it’s fueled by her own selfish goal.
Because it’s funny! But really I mean it’s some punk hitting on Nagisa with his bro Mr. Also-Nobody. No doubts that they probably skip leg day, not the likes of someone who would actually be horrifying ie MuscleMan from Charloot.
Her depth says literally none of these things unless you think that being whipped by societies wants, spending a year of your life alone which is not what you wanted to do one simple thing, having a worthless family- I can go on- is supposed to feed “AWE SO COOL” people which if it did feed those people they’re more naive than her.
Okay I am so late to this discussion because I was sick for a week and now I’m desperately trying to catch up with the bookclub. There seems to be a huge conversation going on about whether to place blame on Tomoyo or Tomoya or something but to understand exactly where we are in that discussion I’d have to read like fifty posts.
BUT
I have to say I liked the way this story presented a female character who had a conflict of interests, Tomoyo does not just exist for the protagonist to meet, fall in love with and scoop up, she has shit she wants to get done. She likes Tomoya or lot, and obviously starts to fall in love with him. It comes to a point where she really has to decide whether this is as important to her as her goals, but instead she decides to not decide, because she doesn’t want to leave either. I think this is really relatable, to float between two incompatible desires, and I’d use this as an argument against her being a Mary-Sue, because it’s definitely a weakness that she has.
At the same time the whole premise of Tomoyo being this vigilante hero who beats up all the villains in town feels completely out of place for me. She is one person, she doesn’t have superpowers, a town-full of criminals would not be scared of her, it’s silly, I can’t take it seriously, it doesn’t fit. The story isn’t really about this, but it’s always been the main thing that’s bothered me about the route and the character, it just draws me straight out.
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I’m late again. Days ought to have more hours. Good thing I already wrote a lot of things about Tomoyo and her route before the bookclub started. More time for arguing!
Jokes aside, let’s get to it.
Random thoughts:
- There’s a certain Kyou scene in this route and I think that’s great! VNs with several heroines should have way more events where jealousy is involved!
- Similarity with After story: Tomoyo changed for the better, but her past caught up to her when a horde of delinquents came to her school to attack her and (in a bad ending), ruined her career. Just like (After Story spoiler) how Tomoya’s past caught up to him when his career was ruined due to his father’s imprisonment.
- In this route, Sunohara was more bro than I gave him credit for
As mentioned several times in this topic, Tomoyo and Tomoya are pretty similar, in that Tomoyo is just a successfull version of Tomoya. This was kinda pointed out in the narration on April 22nd when you choose the heartless option:
“I wonder if that’s the difference between us. A person who managed to get back on their feet in life, and one who didn’t”
There is another subtle hint on that in the VN as a whole: (minor After Story spoiler) Tomoya never managed to stop the city from changing (he complained, but never really tried). But Tomoyo actually succeeded at protecting the sakura trees.
Tomoya can be pretty badass when he’s not busy telling himself that he isn’t. I bet if it wasn’t for his injury, he’d be just as good at playing basketball as Tomoyo is at beating up delinquents.
And here’s also the problem: Tomoya has already given up. While Tomoyo is back in action and giving her all for her goal, Tomoya is just sitting there, lamenting how he’s not good enough for her. And THAT is how Tomoya ended up being the source of Tomoyo’s problems, instead of being the guy who fixes them in other routes. And I’m not talking about actual, tangible problems, because at the beginning, they only exist in the heads of Tomoya and his haters. It’s the idea that an unsuccessfull guy will drag down a successfull girl just by being with her.
As @Pepe pointed out, the first problems that occured in their relationship were in fact Tomoyo’s fault. Tomoyo is just kinda lacking common sense. While it does make her more cute, it gets her in trouble. Or it would have, but since everyone, including Tomoya, has already started worshiping Tomoyo as some kind of ideal role model, the blame has been shifted on Tomoya, who was also quick to blame himself. But once again, blaming himself is all he does. He could improve Tomoyo’s image, but why didn’t he try to improve his own? Why not make it look like the all-popular Tomoyo turned a good-for-nothing-delinquent into a proper student? People would totally believe that! But that didn’t happen, because, once again, Tomoya was too busy worshiping Tomoyo to see her flaws and because he had already given up on himself. He didn’t try to improve himself. He just left.
I’d like to join in on the Mary Sue thing once again, but that would blow my post out of proportion, so for now I’ll say just this:
@Kanon: what I can understand the least about your critique on Tomoyo (though this assumption itself could be totally wrong) is that you seem to regard her lack of failure as evil. But being successfull is to my mind the difference between Tomoyo and Tomoya: One stood back up and is successfull, while the other has failed and given up. The point is: Tomoya, too, could’ve been successfull if he tried again.
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Tomoyo still had one person close to her who was capable of keeping her going. Tomoya had no one to influence him like that.
Tomoyo had Takafumi. Tomoya had Tomoyo, who really tried to be that person for him. Unfortunately, Tomoyo had two goals, and Tomoya didn’t allow her to abandon her other goal for his sake.
While I did say that Tomoya’s idleness was part of the problem, it’s not like I’m blaming Tomoya for giving up. I’m not that guy who gives “valuable advice” like “You just gotta be more motivated, bro!”. Tomoyo didn’t get back on her feet on her own. She was saved by Takafumi. She failed to be Tomoya’s savior at first, but she got back on track eventually.
Let’s recap: Tomoyo wanted to help Tomoya, but that would mean abandoing her own goal. Tomoya had given up on himself but he wanted Tomoyo to keep going, so he sacrificed himself. That did allow Tomoyo to reach her goal but denied her happiness. So she sacrificed a more promising future to regain that happiness and save Tomoya after all.
What do we learn from that? When you’re close to another human being, sacrificing yourself for the other won’t solve their problems. If you wish to save them, you have to save yourself as well.
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@Kanon I feel you’re a bit hung up on how the VN supposedly wants you to feel about Tomoyo, and as someone who really likes her I didn’t have any of those reactions. To me Tomoyo’s OP-ness is mostly just a running joke I can laugh at every now and then and I don’t like her personally more for it, it just makes the reading experience more enjoyable. It’s part of her character, sure, but not something I’d think of when I were to describe her better traits. It’s just there. And the whole bit about the writing turning her flaws into positives, biased narrators yo. No need to take that at face value.
On a more general note, in regards to the post breakup section, I’d like to note the differences to the anime OVA here. In the anime Tomoya retains his early rising and does better at school after breaking up with Tomoyo. Quite different from him being like “I have lost the sole thing Tomoyo had left me with” just one week later.
I wonder if they just wanted to be more hopeful and positive for the anime especially since the context we’re given for Tomoya in the anime is vastly different. From what I’ve read of the visual novel so far Tomoya going back to his former ways seems more believable, but what do you think?
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I think it’s related to the fact that you see 23 episodes of Nagisa, Fuuko and Kotomi (+parts of other) routes. In all of those, Tomoya was the guy who kept giving his best despite being in a bad position and helping the girls that way.
In Tomoyo’s route, however, Tomoya still kept giving up on himself, which, as I mentioned, was part of the route’s conflict. Breaking up with Tomoyo obviously didn’t help his motivation.
It would be hard go against that image of 23 episodes Tomoya “who keeps trying” and picture him as someone “who had given up” while providing an adequate explanatioin in a short amount of time. It would make much more sense to go along with the image that was already established.
So while it would indeed be more believable for the VN Tomoya to revert to his pathetic state, the anime Tomoya had already made some progress. (From the anime point of view, Tomoya is still the guy who helped all those other girls but chose Tomoyo in the end).
The problem is it affects the plot. Would she have won the election if she didn’t beat all those sports clubs? Looking at how she was treated before probably not. Would she have won against the clubs if she wasn’t powerful? Again probably not as she never played baseball and the baseball club was really good. It’s fine in the baseball route as that’s meant for comedy. The clubs thing is meant as comedy but she probably would not have won the election is she had not won.
I’m not sure if that’s what @Kanon is talking about but that’s my biggest issue with her route although, I did like her route starting from when she won the election.
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Oh finally someone else with the common sense to also find it really out of place and dumb.
It’s like. Unbelievable, she’s too good at succeeding in everything. I makes her character just not feel like a person, but just a character.
Except for the part where only the baseball had it’s comedic moment and the others were just Tomoyo blasting assholes without any jokes. Good comedy there.
Noooooo society got to you too :komue:
Yes, she can date Tomoya at the same time as trying to save the sakura trees. And being able to manage both of those is the key to making it happen. As you said, she isn’t perfect, but it’s because of these flaws that society kept pressuring Tomoya that he was “pulling her down”
I personally disagree with that, but I guess this is where we may draw the line on this topic. Every time Tomoya is pointed out to be dragging her down are instances when Tomoyo herself goes out of her way to be with Tomoya. That seems to be the main argument behind their pressure.
I believe that she can, and she would, if she were at least aware of the social implications of her actions. But she isn’t, and that’s what’s causing this huge ball of negativity.
I think that might be the key point in regards to her characters “perfection”. What @Kanon says is right, she seems to be a perfect character, whose flaws are ignored because of her perfection… But that kind of thinking is only reserved for the characters in-game. For us readers, we are supposed to see her flaws, and it is written in such a way that her flaws and depth should be pretty obvious.
Man so many people keep bringing this up but this is one point I refuse to accept…
As if improving his own image would really help her own goal. Literally the only kind of improvement that won’t run into problems with the council were for Tomoya himself to become part of the student council. That’s what the other student council member was telling Tomoya when they talked in the first place. Even if he becomes a decent student, the best that could happen would that society would stop breathing down their necks about “pulling Tomoyo down” but Tomoyo would still mess up with her student council duties and might even end up not saving the cherry blossoms that she holds so dearly. And I guess that’ll just make it like the bad end all over again.
So how can Tomoyo save both the cherry trees and Tomoya? She would have had to keep her responsibilities stead; know when she has to do things with the student council, and know when she can spend time with Tomoya. As far as Tomoya is concerned, he didn’t need any constant attention from her. If they were still together but Tomoyo stopped waking him up in the morning, he would still go to class on time. I believe that at that point, society would stop breathing down their necks, and he would stop beating himself up about it. He would be more supportive, the same way he was when helping her campaign. He would understand her lack of time, and even if they could only meet once a week, heck, once a month, that would still keep Tomoya going. He would be saved, the cherry blossom trees would be saved, and we wouldn’t have much of a route.
This is a personal thing, but I have no idea how you or anybody else can feel like characters are people. I will always view them as characters and nothing more, no matter how well-written they are.
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Characters aren’t people, but they should feel like people. It’s the only way to evoke emotional responses in the viewer, reader or player. You’re never going to have a totally natural and sincere reaction to a character dying or falling in love or standing on a lego piece, because part of you knows they aren’t real, so it never reaches the level of emotional reaction we experience in reality. However the more ‘real’ a character feels the closer we become to that kind of true response. And that’s why in a story that centres around the drama of human feelings, something that makes a character feel less like a person is a problem.
We know the answer to that o.o It’s the ending of the route.
Especially coming from a VN/Anime product. These characters are a bunch of 2d drawings with personalities that are the result of a trope-filled pick 'n mix.
But no, I think you’re being too literal. It’s just an easy way to criticize a personality without really knowing what you are talking about. It’s a way to make “I don’t like this type of character, oh well” sound like legitimate critique.
I completely disagree. I can empathize with a trashy character because I’m human. Do you know what a lot of humans do? They project themselves onto other things. Personification. Our species can relate to something with the smallest amount of input. If a random background character I’ve never seen before steps on a lego brick? Well, I’m gonna understand the pain, even if the character has no depth whatsoever. They are obviously not a person, but we’d still think of them in a similar way to a person.
I think you’re disagreeing with something that I didn’t mean to say. I’m not saying that we as humans can’t relate to fictional characters or understand their pain, we absolutely can. I’m saying that when we watch a character die in fiction it does not have as big of an impact as it would if we were to watch an actual person die, but the more realistically that character is written the closer we get to that level of true response.
If you’re saying that the level of which you respond to a characters experiences is the same regardless of how realistic and well-written the character is then we do disagree. I can’t even fathom that, honestly.
