Again, Tomoyo and Tomoya are so similar. The way Tomoya sees Tomoyo is the same as the way Tomoyo sees Tomoya. They are both lonely people. They both put an emphasis on family. They both have great potential. They both settle for, and fight against, the standards people set for them… Even the standards they set for each other. They are both seen as big fighting delinquents by others. They are both seen as textbook examples of a student. They are both a bother for each other on a morning, but they both enjoy each other’s company. They push their way onto others. They are both indecisive… There’s so much that these characters have in common. They are pretty much interchangeable.
Tomoyo’s route is a mixed bag for me. On one hand, I like Tomoyo as a character in the sense that she’s kickass, has a goal she’s working towards, and generally doesn’t care how others perceive her with some exceptions. On the other I didn’t really feel the romance. I thought the friendship between her and Tomoya (feat. Sunohara) was nice and I enjoyed their platonic interactions but I felt like the romantic stuff seemed a bit out of the blue. I thought the transition was a bit too sudden for me, which happens a lot in romance VNs in general, but just because it’s common doesn’t justify it. I also didn’t feel too emotionally attached to the relationship because a lot of it was “teens making poor decisions”. I don’t dislike the route, but it certainly isn’t my favorite.
As a main heroine, I’d have to say that Tomoyo is my favorite second only to Nagisa. That said, I do find her route to be a bit contrived in the aspect that neither Tomoya nor Tomoyo can really think straight when they’re together. However, I think it’s what adds to the charm of the route; Tomoyo is willing to give up her dreams to be with Tomoya, while Tomoya on the other hand is willing to give up both of their happiness for Tomoyo’s dreams to be fulfilled. The situation does make for an overall entertaining and poignant route.
Their biggest problem of their relationship is that while they could understand each other, they didn’t communicate leading to a loss of time where they could’ve been together (as Tomoyo says at the end). Could it have been possible for the both of them to change their ways without sacrificing both of their happiness and Tomoyo’s dream of preventing the trees from being cut down? I believe that Tomoya could’ve changed his ways to be with her, which disappoints me a bit. On the other hand, I doubt that Tomoyo would’ve ever been able to put her duties before Tomoya, which would ultimately result in her failing her goal. I think that Tomoya’s choice to break up was the best choice for the both of them, but his reasons were all wrong which was the most gut wrenching part.
Overall, it was a great read and I’m already getting tears in my eyes. I’m gonna break apart as we get further into this VN.
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Whew, went and finished the route just now, and caught up with all the other posts as well. So, to start things off, I just wanna say…
TOMOYA DID NOTHING WRONG!
I did make a side comment a few posts before, but looks like that is going to be the crux of my opinions towards this route. A lot of the issues being tackled here are not due to Tomoya being at fault, but society for viewing him that way. Many times it is repeated that because Tomoyo is with Tomoya, she is being dragged down. And this gets to Tomoya. This eats at his soul because he cares so much for Tomoyo. If society didn’t brand him as being a burden, he wouldn’t have had to felt that way and, instead, he’d just be some dude going out with the student council president. Their society has been blinded to the real causes of the problems that Tomoyo has been having with the student council.
But where do the real problems begin? They begin when Tomoyo herself goes out of the way to accommodate Tomoya. A kind of accommodation that Tomoya never asked for and, judging from his personality, he would be okay without. Yet Tomoyo still pushes it. This is because of the main problem in her personality: she is way too aloof.
@Karifean did mention it a little bit but I think it’s a bigger problem than they give credit to. It’s because of this aloofness that she doesn’t realize that her reputation has been tarnishing, thus causing Tomoya to have to help her join the student council. It’s this aloofness that makes her unaware to the problems that she is causing to her own student council. It’s this aloofness that makes her too stupid to realize what people are saying about them and how much it is affecting Tomoya. Even until the moment they break up, she fails to realize this.
There’s a reason why I had a lot of respect for the other student council member when he said that “I want to scold her” because he is, unlike the rest of society, aware of the problems that Tomoyo possesses and isn’t as quick to solely blame it on Tomoya. Of course that respect disappeared seconds later when he tells Tomoya to get lost, probably because he knows that he can’t control Tomoyo as long as Tomoya is there (despite that not being a fault of Tomoya in the first place).
And this is where they just sweep everything under the rug. Society wins. Tomoyo is just too good for Tomoya. Thus ends their relationship until Tomoyo allows herself to compromise after succeeding in her goal. In a way, it’s a very real conclusion, and a very heartwarming one, because that’s what love is all about: compromise.
And I will just sit here in my corner dissatisfied with the fact that they let society win.
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I think the dissatisfaction was a big part of how I felt when I finished the route. At the time I was trying to figure out if my dissatisfaction came from Tomoyo going back to Tomoya - but I felt even at the time that it fit with her character and goals really well. But you might be on to the real source saying that “They just let society win” Even if it is realistic, it is kind of frustrating to Tomoya’s depression surge up stronger before, and how there is no bumps for Tomoyo and the resolution is just them kind of getting back together. I think it is the kind of story where you really want some kind of epic defying of society and emerge victorious.
I still really liked this route though.
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Nah. Tomoya did wrong, he just wasn’t the only one doing it wrong. Everyone else was pretty dumb too. That’s why drama exists.
Again, that’s one of the reasons I like the route. Tomoyo and Tomoya aren’t gonna do anything. They aren’t the type to. They aren’t in the place to. It wouldn’t make sense. They are two depressed teens, with no experience being close to someone, no experience in bringing a positive end to a drama, no positive experience with society. They have no place in a fairytale outcome, and they don’t desire a fairytale outcome. They just want a life that lives up to their motivations. These kids are dumb and pretty pathetic. They know it, and they come to conclusions within or below their limits. They may not be the best conclusions, but they are what the characters can manage.
They settle to a certain degree, and fight to another. It’s not an extreme like a lot of stories are.
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I enjoyed Tomoyo’s route (finished it yesterday) and I like her character a lot, but her route left me a bit dissatisfied and there wasn’t really much to it compared to the others. I personally prefer Kotomi’s route ^^;
More on topic, her route was really good and created some nice tension over most of the first half, but the latter half almost sort of devolved into just Tomoya loathing himself and Tomoyo was barely there at all. I feel like it would have been better if they spent more time developing the relationship and showing how Tomoya’s loathing began to cause a lot of tension in the relationship towards the end before the final breakup, but that’s just me. On a scale of one to ten, I’d rate her route a solid 8, but it is definitely a 5 on a low point scale.
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I’ll have to read this more later but I’m seeing very scarce discussion of one of the best parts of Tomoyo- Her glaring faults, such as (this is the only close word I can find, but it’s not perfect) extreme selflessness, with a tad of selfishness that doesn’t really balance it out. There’s a great pair of themes that comes from this like, saying what you think, but not thinking much before acting. Much like trying to piece together the puzzle, it’s confusing to really iron out the details of their feelings and decisions in such a short period of time for them as well as the reader! lol
This route is EXTREMELY out of the ordinary, despite it having a relationship as one of its major pieces. I found a large part of the route focused on topics of perception and how we are alone in our minds in the end, even in love, so our motivations and things are very hard to understand completely- Even when thinking about ourselves. Especially in such a crazy time like highschool.
Anyways, looking forward to the podcast~ I need more time to let it stew in my brain, but overall: fuckin’ awesome route. Very unique. Loved it and it hit home yet again.
Except Ana fucking sucks and it messed up my crying. VERY UNCOOL. 5/5
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She’s selfish in the way that she’s selfless, because she doesn’t understand other people. Tomoya does it too. They are clearly very kind people who think of others a lot, but it doesn’t always come over in the right way, and they tend to push themselves onto others.
It’s a very specific social quirk but certainly not a rare one. I’ve certainly known those people and understand that mindset, but I can’t put it into words, it’s much too complicated. o.o
Tomoyo route, one of the best routes (I am a little biased for the heroine).
Prepare for a lot of Tomoya/o confusion, I may confuse their name sometime.
I loved how the society automatically try to separate Tomoya and Tomoyo, in fact I am one of those guys who would try to separate them, because realistically speaking, Tomoyo’s specs doesn’t match Tomoya’s.
Tomoya is a nice, hard working guy, but he really is a dead weight for Tomoyo, since the abilities that she gained through all of the off-screen hardwork will be wasted if she doens’t utilize it after graduation and if she does use it correctly, the income difference between Tomoya and Tomoyo will be very big, which could cause some stress and tension between them.
Even Tomoya and Tomoyo were a part of the guys who thought that thought that they didn’t match and they shouldn’t be together, it was just Tomoya who voiced it and break up with her. It was one of his biggest sacrifices, to throw off a posible happy future with his lover, to make sure that she can get the best possible future and Tomoyo did the same sacrifice to respect Tomoya’s determination, because she logically understood that he was right.
But, this route enphasize the reasons for one own hardwork, which is personal happiness, not the one that society demand. Tomoyo did her best to create a wonderful memory with her brother (pervy voyeur Takafumi, I love you), and after she accomplished it, she only needed Tomoya, to hell the society demands, she is an individual and each one has their own happiness, she already completed the objective that made her attain all of those skills, so she doesn’t need it anymore, no in fact, those were just shackles that was separating Tomoya/Tomoyo, they realized that breaking up was a mistake and was Tomoyo who take the step to correct it.
Really beautiful, and it was refreshing that the girl wasn’t the helpless one in contrast to the typical dependant heroines of anime/manga.
As a side note, Takafumi was the one who teached the value of doing one’s best to unite the family and forgive their mistkaes.
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OH, BOY IT’S TIME.
Tomoyo’s Character
So a lot of people ask me why I rag on Tomoyo so hard, well the first reason is that she’s a Mary Sue and Mary Sue is the most garbage character archetype that I have absolutely no interest in considering a valid way to write any character at all.
Oh cool, past me has already argued why she’s a Mary Sue, I guess I’ll leave it up to present me to explain why I think this is bad, but first of all, I’ll comment on the one thing I said that I currently don’t agree with.
You just read Tomoyo After didn’t you past me? That sounds like a good description for Tomoyo After Tomoyo, but in Clannad she’s go plenty of personality, and really good chemistry with Tomoya.
So there that’s the one thing in my previous rant I’ll append, if you have any other complaints about it, feel free to question me on it, I’d love to see what I can say about it with a refreshed and now fully VN’d view on the subject of her being garbage.
Now THEN why is it bad that Tomoyo is a Mary Sue, because Mary Sue is forgoing the creation actual interesting character traits in exchange for just making something so ‘cool’ and hoping the reader will overlook that they’re garbage, Tomoyo is this, all the character traits she has are to beef up her perfection as the writing literally in that she can do literally anything she wants because she’s a perfect human being.
This is frankly, pathetic. It’s insulting me by expecting me to treat Tomoyo, who has the depth of a sonic fan character, in the same as a character like Nagisa, who is written and developed to resemble a human being.
And don’t get me started on the fact that Tomoyo is literally a superhuman. Why does this bother nobody, it’s absolutely stupid and out of place, why is she freaking superhuman!? What does that bring to anything other than making her even MORE Mary ass Sue?
It’s completely ridiculous and I hate it. I really feel like the setting of Clannad is damaged because there is a random ass literal superhuman running around. It leads to pathetic lines like ‘a muscular man who looks like he probably trains constantly appears behind her’ so it makes her look so kyaa kakoi for one shotting him effortlessly.
NOW THEN. WITH THE SUEISH STUFF (mostly) OUT OF THE WAY, lets move on to her personality. And the biggest actually problem with Tomoyo.
WOW. WHAT A SELF CENTERED LITTLE SHIT YOU ARE, TOMOYO.
Everything she does and interacts with must abide by what she thinks and she won’t be satisfied otherwise, every tiny conversation she has, she must never end without being the one who gets the last remark, the people in student council is insignificant to her as long as she gets what she wants.
I’d say the best example of this is when Tomoya brings up that her hanging out with him will completely mess up that whole Student Council thing, and she pretty much says that because SHE doesn’t care about those things, nobody else should, because to Tomoyo’s mind, nobody else should disagree with what she thinks. This is not an isolated incident, just the strongest example.
Ok so there is several problems with this, first, I absolutely despise this character trait, honestly that fact alone should be enough to justify not liking this character, but that’s only the tip of the iceberg. Second, because she’s everyone’s perfect pretty princess, it’s treated as a POSITIVE thing, it’s treated as strong determination and shining will or some shit, and that’s why I can’t stand her. The game sucks her off for having what I consider to be an extremely negative personality trait and I have to read all this tripe about how cool and amazing she is for doing what I consider to be appauling behavior.
The Route
(objectively, unclouded by opinions regarding Tomoyo being trash)DIS GUD, DIS RLY GUD.
Tomoya/Tomoyo have this great chemistry, similar to Tomoya/Sunohara but less gay, she’s more like a bro than a gril, and it’s easily believable that she would get attached to those two asshats because that’s the kind of people she can be bros with, the trio have a completely believable relationship after she starts hanging out with them. With a believable transition into becoming lovers and doing that believable disgusting overly lovey dovey high schooler thing.
On the topic of bros, there was a bit of a talk about Sunohara not being a ‘keybro’ but instead just a dickhead, but in this route he was a total bro, he wingman’d, he helped a homie deal with drama, and he was just overall a cool guy, even to Tomoyo. He’s a dickhead, but he’s not JUST a dickhead.
Tomoya/Tomoyo having reflections of the other is cool, with them both reacting differently to a shit family life, Tomoya listening to Linkin’ Park, and Tomoyo jumping into some toxic ooze or whatever she did to gain super powers, but different in how Tomoyo was able to break her cycle of angst while Tomoya was stuck in it, good stuff.
The story was all cool beans, I feel like everyone here has already said what I can on this part since I’m late finishing this one, it’s tight, it’s meaningful, it’s just goooooooood.
Overall
Writing. Plot. Pacing, everything about this route is extremely solid and it’s easily the best part of the VN thus far. But Tomoyo being Tomoyo is a glaring flaw about it that I cannot accept.
Yuri Nakamura/10
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But she can’t. She’s pretty pathetic in what she can do honestly. She’s “strong” and “smart” but she’s a complete idiot and she’s really weak willed. She’s a pretty standard smart student from the schools I went to. As I’ve said before, I think she’s basically just girl Tomoya.
I think they are actually complete opposites, hence why Nagisa is an unbearably annoying existence
For comedy? It’s not like there isn’t a whole bunch of superhumans around as well.
It’s not that she doesn’t care, it’s that she isn’t aware of that. She is extremely selfish, but she isn’t aware of it, and it’s not like she has any friends to make her see that. She’s as dumb as a little kid in that regard. She doesn’t understand others at all. This also comes across in how she tries to present herself to others. She’s always uncertain. It’s like… the core of her character. They bash that fact into your head… Heck, they have a running gag about it leading to Sunohara’s daily death scene.
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Bullshit, maybe she’s bad at deciding to do something without someone giving her a reason to, but she can do literally anything, being a beautiful intelligent superhuman afterall.
M8
In Clannad? Where?
Her being jesus is a part in getting her elected too, it’s not a tool of just comedy.
Tomoya straight up told her, he made her aware of it, several times, and she constantly completely ignored the warning. One quote I saved in particular is ‘I’m saying it’s fine, so it’s fine’. She’s not being unaware of the problem, she was actively asserting that it won’t be a problem, citing ‘I don’t care about it’ as her primary reason it wouldn’t be a problem.
Man I don’t agree so hard, but I’ll save myself time and bring up just a few points: You say that she defaults to a can-do-anything state, but the quirk to her character is that she can accomplish anything if she sets herself forward to do so. She’s that kind of existence- I’ve known those people and been that person. For example, in baseball, she’s utter trash until motivated to smash in Sunohara’s face, which then gives her a goal, and is then furthered in the other events because she learns why it is Tomoya had started the whole thing. The superhuman part is for comedy and feeds her street cred more than anything else. I’ve no doubts she’s got the technique to beat some roid-brain dude.
I would go on to disagree completely with your comment-
[quote=“Kanon, post:52, topic:1934”]
This is frankly, pathetic. It’s insulting me by expecting me to treat Tomoyo, who has the depth of a sonic fan character, in the same as a character like Nagisa, who is written and developed to resemble a human being.
[/quote] because I simply don’t understand what brings it up…? I never felt like this was a thing at all. They’re completely different in how their events play out and… Everything. And to say Tomoyo has no depth is just absurd.
I’m a pretty firm believer in humans setting their own limitations and that they’re capable of great things if they have actual genuine motivation and will not back down in search of their dream- This being a theme so present it bites Tomoyo in the ass and even goes so far as to tell the reader to think about their commitments.
Because she’s incredibly naive, yes. This is important.
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That makes sense because
[quote=“TVTropes”]Mary Sue is a derogatory term primarily used in Fan Fic circles to describe a particular type of character. This much everyone can agree on. What that character type is, exactly, differs wildly from circle to circle, and often from person to person.
TV Tropes doesn’t get to set what the term means; the best we can do is capture the way it is used. Since there’s no consensus on a precise definition, the best way to describe the phenomenon is by example of the kind of character pretty much everyone could agree to be a Mary Sue. [/quote]
Mary Sue by definition being a bad (and subjective) character trait
See that’s the fun part. This Mary Sue-ness isn’t only meant for the reader; it’s meant for everyone else in the cast. Notice how everyone looks at her and loves her and is quick to shun Tomoya away, even though he didn’t really do anything wrong? Yeah, power of the Mary Sue right there.
I guess the point I’m trying to make here is that she is written to be “little miss perfect” and even in the VN they acknowledge this, but I personally notice (and I hope everyone else reading notices) the glaring flaws in her personality, which I pointed out in my previous post. But yeah I won’t rag on you for hating her for that reason because, what you said is true, and I can’t change what you like or dislike. I’ve always been pretty neutral about it.
Someone should summon Takanon so they can start hating on everything.
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Kyou is pretty godly at times. There is Kazuto.
Clannad does this stuff with everyone. It puts everything to an extreme. When someone does good, it is to epic proportions. When someone does bad, it is exaggerated drama. It’s both a way of presenting Tomoya’s world view, and a way to get people engaged. Then, once the reader is fully invested, and Tomoya has opened up more, it can be more down-to-earth about everything.
Hearing doesn’t equal understanding.
Honestly though, I think Tomoyo’s idea is the right thing to say, just not that way… Because she doesn’t understand interaction with others.
Tomoya shouldn’t care about all the people projecting aspirations onto Tomoyo, because she doesn’t share those aspirations… And Tomoya’s core problem is that he think’s he’s not good enough for Tomoyo. If Tomoyo isn’t bothered by it, then his worries are void. Now, those worries will always persist because that’s love, and no matter how much you insist that there are no problems, the other will always have that worry. Tomoya is just very down on himself in general, so it’s more extreme with him, and Tomoyo is more insensitive about it than normal, so again, it’s more extreme. They just need to accept that they might never come to an understanding.
I’m pretty much the same in that regard. It’s probably why I like Tomoyo and Yuiko. A lot lazier than those girls though. Most underachieving student in my town’s history! I owned that title like no one before me. Chances are, if I wanted to do something, I’m already doing that… And despite what the teachers who want their students to succeed say, and despite how annoyed people get at how unfair life can be, it doesn’t matter to me. Of course, Tomoyo has a messed up past and a bit of an appearance complex that make her aspirations unclear to other people.
It’s not being a mary sue imo. It’s a flaw in it’s self. She’s close to one, but not the definition of the phrase.
I like to think she took the Kanako approach. Using smarts to make you seem stronger.
This is why I through in the Nagisa comment. This is just a “I don’t like that type of person” talk.
This is another thing. The route is very focused on other people’s views. Tomoyo’s strength could just be a way to present that since, yeah, we’re seeing the world through Tomoya’s eyes. To some of the students and teachers, Tomoya is a guy who goes around beating people up for no real reason, and who doesn’t care about anything, but we don’t see that, because we’re in the mind of that guy.
The Kanon part hates on everything good. Taka only hates on the stuff that’s justifiably bad 
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It’d be nice to think about his worries being void if it weren’t for the fact that Tomoyo continued to do things that were getting in the way of her student council duties, with her not even realizing it!
His worries are totally not void exactly because it’s Tomoyo he’s dealing with. Even if he stops worrying, she will continue shirking her dutirs for his sake, to the point that she might not even save those Sakura trees. Then guess what, we’d just have the bad ending all over again.
He was right for worrying. It’s just that society made him blind to the fact that he wasn’t the problem; tomoyo was. And it’s because she’s little miss perfect that they saw her that way
No no no… Society is the problem. Tomoyo certainly isn’t the problem- She’s naive and causes problems due to all the things she wants to do without thinking about the consequences because they’re consequences that shouldn’t exist. Her intentions are nothing but good, she’s just not very tactful. Tomoya causes problems because despite he himself knowing that the world won’t have him there he’s selfish and loves Tomoyo because she gives his life something meaningful, which is why he turns to the only thing he can turn to for what he thinks is best for them both in the world- Cherish their short amount of time and leave it behind.
For more on their relationship in the eyes of society, let us turn to HILL CUNT as I’ve aptly named him, who is such an interesting existence-
… In the podcast. 
Route is complex af
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Well, that does word a bit better what I was trying to say. Perhaps if society were more forgiving and not blind to her perfectness (or blind to tomoya’s “delinquency”), they’d actually make her aware of the problems she is causing and thus allow her to fix them.
But hey, that wouldn’t be much of a route
