CLANNAD - Tomoyo Sakagami Route & Character Discussion

Nick gets a mostly pass on the route thing, this is why I don’t like talking about Clannad because I’m a filthy Anime only for this one. I don’t think his points fully refute the one I made, but it does lessen the solidity of it at least. Now then…

Just because she god damn ‘worked to be smart’ doesn’t make her being smart not a sueish trait, and in fact, just makes her look even god damn more sueish because ‘she choose to do something and changed for the better and is a hard worker, these are great traits to have, isn’t she just perfect?~’.

She’s good at sports, smart, pretty, a great cook, punctual, devoted(as fuck), loved by god damn everyone, a hard worker and frankly, flat out superhuman.
What’s her flaws?
‘She wasn’t always this way’
That doesn’t count to the current Tomoyo, she got over her problems, and like I said, that’s making this thing you’re passing of as a negative trait into a positive trait.

Yeah, ok seems balanced. You see this shit? She’s too. Fucking. ‘Perfect’. And as we can see from Nick’s Wiki quote, ‘too perfect’ is a trait of a Mary ass sue.
Ok what else does that quote have? Oh realistic yes I know people with every single one of those traits all over the place.
Poorly developed? Well all her development happens off screen before she became the jesus with tits we know and hate, about the only development I see past then is ‘getting a crush on this guy’.

What personality? Show me where on the Tomoyo that one might find a personality? All she does is stand around being perfect, she’s completely dry and while I’ve tried to extend this sentence, I simply cannot think of any other personality traits but ‘dry’.

She’s got a god damn sack of positive traits with no real negative traits and lacks the personality and charm to make up for being such a lopsided mess.
That is as Mary Sue as you get.

I mean it’s not like it’s a fictional world or anything.

Tomoyo just sucks in the anime and he can’t really argue about her route in the VN if he hasn’t read it.

Hey, I’ve read HER VN, which I consider well written, and she sucks there too.
I. simply. do not. like. her.
And that doesn’t mean I’m wrong about her sueishness.

In Tomoyo After I’d say Tomoya is more of a Mary Sue. He does stuff through pure effort and determination that Tomoyo can’t do~

Yeah but that’s not Tomoya in Tomoyo After, it’s his weird twin who is nothing like him, Tomoyoya.
Jokes aside, I’ll take it to the Tomoyo After Discussion.

Bookclub discussion begins from this post onward!

I know I am jumping ahead of the club a bit, but my first tears were shed on this route.

When Tomoya starts breaking up with Tomoyo and the way you could just tell Tomoyo was so broken up by this but how she also couldn’t let go of her promise to her brother

I am still processing my overall opinion of the end. I mean, I enjoyed it but I have torn feelings about Tomoyo picking Tomoya over moving forward, but at the same time I think she was forcing herself to take on more than she wanted to because of goals. Consistently what she cares about is those close to her, so even if she is good at being at the top, it doesn’t really seem like it is rewarding for her so I do think ending up with Tomoya may have been the greatest ultimate happiness.

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Same here. This was the first route I played (just bought the game a few days ago; went with the first heroine that interested me, which was Tomoyo), and I’m conflicted about it.

Well, let me be more clear: I can clearly see a problem with it, but I’m debating whether that problem is solely in Tomoyo and Tomoya’s choices, whose faults go on to make the route and characterization better, or whether said choices actually decreased the quality of the route.

Namely: Tomoya didn’t approach their relationship in a very rational way. I think he was half-way there in that he was willing to break up for the sake of the other: if you’re convinced that it’s best for you two to break up for the sake of each other’s happiness, that’s a good pain to have. You can bear it, because it’s actually born of love. But that wasn’t Tomoya’s reasoning. He said, “This is what is best for you; I’m just holding you back.”

But that’s already starting off on a bad premise. He’s delegating them as unsuitable for marriage because of a perceived difference in ability: “because she can do anything and is aiming for places I cannot go, we cannot be together.” But (besides the easily refuted fallacy that both partners have to be successful on the same level, especially given that plenty of homes have only one breadwinner) that has a deeper root: “my poor behavior is dragging her down.”

There’s nothing there that couldn’t be fixed with discipline, in the first place. Tomoyo, man up. Tomoya, just do your job diligently and stop skipping out. Not being able to see your lover during busy StuCo moments doesn’t mean you have to break up or get exceedingly stressed out. High school lasts for a few years; marriage lasts for life. You aren’t really losing much time there, guys, as I think most long-distance relationship couples would agree.

But the biggest problem, I think, is the way he reached his conclusion. It’s not wrong to discover that you each feel drawn to contradictory paths in life and, after much consideration, you come to a consensus that it’s best to break up. But that was never the real decision made by them; their whole break-up was based on Tomoya’s conclusion, without even talking with Tomoyo about it until he had already made his choice. Lack of communication is a bad thing, young man.

Anyway, I’ll stop there. More points to be had, but they’re secondary to what’s been said.

In the end, I liked the route. Not sure whether it’s sending all the right messages, by the end, but the ending was sweet. Interested in Tomoyo After, which is supposedly being translated…?

About Tomoyo herself: I really liked her. Tied with imouto for favorite character so far, and Tomoyo’s route stands at #1 at the moment. We’ll see if that changes.

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Well, it’s getting an official release. It had already been fan translated.

Ah, gotcha. I’ll add that to the ever-growing list of VNs to buy.

I agree with most of the posters in that I fantastically liked Tomoyo, that she had grey hair (I have always had a thing for VN and Anime characters with grey hair, I will never understand and have stopped trying) is just the cherry on top. In addition going off of the common route and the few other routes I have done I felt that she definitely had the most compatibility with Tomoya and all their interactions just seemed very natural.

I don’t really think that she qualifies as a mary-sue though she probably does come close. Yes she is ridiculously strong and her athletic ability is nonsensical. Yes it is particularly odd that she is that while also being an exceptional student at what is supposed to be an exceptional school. But this game has several things that are unrealistic and Tomoyo’s being good at most things except intuiting her boyfriend’s thoughts and having more than one goal at a time is hardly the least realistic thing in there. Tomoyo is also very insecure about herself (she was basically willing to lose the baseball game to prove that she was feminine) not to mention how seriously she took the whole “Sunohara thinks you’re a guy” circumstance which I think most people would treat as ridiculous as it is.

At any rate I liked the route itself up until the troubles really started hitting the fan as I really did like Tomoyo and Tomoya’s interactions and they did seem very natural with each other. Ultimately I just found the route itself really depressing because Tomoya, instead of doing something like changing himself such that he could be remotely successful with his life, decides to take the choice of just staying where he was in life, his love and Tomoyo’s love(particularly since she didn’t really have a say in the matter) be damned. That it didn’t seem to occur to anyone (other than Tomoyo who only pursued it early on) that Tomoya could actually change is really something I do not understand. That being said I can still believe that something like that would happen-people often turn reputations into immutable facts- it still made me angry that, essentially, Tomoyo had to give up her future so that Tomoya could stay where he was, spinning his wheels.

The thing being, that really just makes the route more tragic than anything else as I could definitely see something like this happening in reality and to some degree have. Despite knowing otherwise this really feels like a bad end that I should have been able to avoid by having Tomoya get out of his rut somehow. The saddest part probably being that there were lots of places where he could have had that kick to get him to change, it almost feels like when that jerk in the student council lays things out for Tomoya there should have been a choice where he has to change and stop living this meaningless life. Tomoya is, at least sometimes, clever and when he wants to can really apply himself to things. Ultimately I realize this is probably just me hoping for what seems to me the happier ending than expecting what is actually the more realistic ending given the characters are who they are. But it does seem wrong to have this called a good ending.

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I think that’s one of the reasons I like this route. Tomoya has lived his life believing that he can’t do anything. Anything he tries at, he’ll ultimately fail at. A lot of VNs, even Key ones, would set the route’s objective to “make Tomoya change” but that is completely unreasonable. It’s normal for VNs, heck, most VN relationships go from first-meeting to bed-time-meeting in a matter of months, but it makes Tomoyo’s route feel different.
Tomoya could change, that’s a definite. The possibility is there.
He probably wouldn’t change in that environment though. He’s still at the school where he is a delinquent, living in a house he never wants to go to, being told he could be better by people who seem so much more than him. He doesn’t really have the input to create a positive output in the short-term. He gave up because he thought it was the only thing he could do. Because he thought he wasn’t worth it. Because he thought he’d lose it anyway. What’s the point? And he didn’t really have anyone to convince him otherwise.

As far as the good ending goes, Tomoya still needs time. He needs a different environment. He needs to be given responsibilities. He needs to be given a reason to care. He didn’t have any of those things. Tomoyo and Tomoya would probably split paths before finding their way onto the path of Tomoyo’s “promising” future.

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Oh boy, Tomoyo’s route. What a blast.

I love Tomoya and Tomoyo’s interactions in the common route. From the very beginning, even when they don’t interact outside of the Sunohara harassing Tomoyo skits, they get along great. And when they become a couple you can really feel how much they care for each other. At the same time Tomoyo has one notable weakness that can end her romantic relationship with Tomoya before it even began: her denseness.

If there’s one characteristic flaw that comes up time and time again regarding Tomoyo it’s that she’s quite oblivious to what the people around her truly think. It’s played for laughs when Tomoya jokingly says he’ll break up with her, but it’s a much more serious matter at other times. She doesn’t realize Sunohara and Tomoya both get quite irritated with her when she comes to wake them up. She’s stuck in naively believing she’s helping them, that they surely appreciate it. On the other hand she’s very open about what she herself is feeling. You could say she’s projecting that trait of herself onto others and doesn’t stop to think about deeper meanings behind people’s facades. What she never catches on to is that even though she’s very honest about her actual desires, other people aren’t so quick to accept that and believe to know what’s best for her. So she keeps ignoring the teacher’s advice and doesn’t even stop to think twice about if Tomoya feels the same way. Her denseness regarding this is also what eventually causes her to abruptly lose her greatest happiness.

Every time I read one of Tomoyo’s bad endings it hits me how easily she just throws everything away to live for Tomoya instead of pursuing her original goal. Because here’s the thing: before she meets Tomoya, she has no long-term dreams or goals to work towards. She wants to preserve the sakura trees, sure, but while I’m not going to downplay the personal importance this goal has for her – it’s important enough for her to risk losing Tomoya over it after all – I do feel this is something she clings to because she has no direction otherwise.

Tomoyo is shown to be very concerned about her femininity. Why is that? Because she feels that that’s who she really is, and that’s where she can find her treasure in life. And this is the crux of Tomoyo route. Tomoyo is certainly athletically and academically talented; but she doesn’t care. What she really wishes for is a normal quiet family life with the man she loves. However, everyone around her, including Tomoya himself, wants her to make use of her talents and become a ‘great person’. For the other student council member it’s to see her become the inspiring ideal he cherishes and can look up to. For the teachers it’s to see the beauty of a talented student achieving success in society. For Tomoya it’s because his immensely low self-esteem does not allow him to accept that Tomoyo could honestly be happy with just being with him and not with doing something greater. They all look at Tomoyo and see the promising student who can work her way through society and reach a height anyone would dream of; never the frail girl with far smaller aspirations.

It really makes me wonder where Tomoyo’s path would lead her if she didn’t meet Tomoya. It’s hardly likely she’d go on to meet someone she clicks with on a fundamental level the way she does with Tomoya. But who knows. Maybe she ends up finding her treasure in life someplace different altogether.

In the bad ends Tomoya can only watch in agony as Tomoyo pursues her true desires and leaves behind her promising future. His guilt and feeling of failure would probably stick with him and tear the relationship apart eventually. On the other hand I’m perfectly inclined to believe that Tomoyo would, in fact, be perfectly content. She lost the sakura trees, but she found something, or rather someone, she really treasures and can devote the rest of her life to.

For Tomoya, Tomoyo is the kind of support he’s always wanted from his own family. Someone to lean on, someone to look forward to seeing in the mornings and the evenings. She is a woman who would unconditionally support him and never abandon him. And she needs him too, to be there for her. It’s a somewhat different kind of relationship compared to the one he has with Nagisa in her route, but hardly an unsatisfying alternative now is it? Tomoyo After goes further into how well they complement each other, but that’s another story for another time.

Although at this point I want to point out one more contrast to Nagisa’s route that sprung out at me. In Nagisa’s route, Tomoya is a LOT more self-confident. When they win the basketball match, he has this monologue about how even if their paths are different from the norm, they (Tomoya, Sunohara, Nagisa) can still reach the same heights everyone else can. In Tomoyo route he goes on and on about how he and Tomoyo are just on completely different levels, meant for different heights. It takes him until the very end to finally accept himself as being an equal to Tomoyo. The moment he does that was so goddamn satisfying. Tomoyo is not some unreachable godlike existence, she’s just a girl. Took you long enough to realize it, Tomoya!

So yeah, Tomoyo’s route. I love it. I love the way everyone involved has their own understanding and views on the whole situation. And how those perspectives conflict and create a web where everyone is convinced they ‘get it’ and yet nobody ever really does get it. I found bits and pieces of myself in Tomoyo which surely helped as well. And the romance between Tomoya and Tomoyo is simply the best.

BRB rereading Tomoyo After.

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This is why I put “promising” in quotes. She’ll settle for that life, but it’s not what she wants. Tomoyo is a family person without a family. She works hard for her family, but we don’t know if they even cared.

I think the hierarchy of her motivations is something like family>Tomoya>self>everything else.
The first thing she wants to do is keep something of her family alive. Once she does that, without Tomoya, all she has to think about is public impressions of herself… Something she honestly doesn’t care too much about in comparison to the family stuff.

That’s why she and Tomoya are so similar.

In the anime, she was basically alone in America while everyone was meeting up.

Again, inputs. The people he’s surrounded by in Tomoyo’s route aren’t as approachable and understanding as in Nagisa’s route, mainly because both him and Tomoyo are lonely people. I’d say the “respectable figures” in Tomoyo’s route are fairly immature compared to the parents and the senpais in Nagisa’s. One is a teenager drama, the other is a family drama.

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This was a big thing that stuck out to me. Tomoya kept telling Tomoyo about other people’s expectations of her, but Tomoyo isn’t really interested in what other people expect of her. While she has the talent to do much and go far, she really cherishes a close family atmosphere above all of that, so I think a more quiet life with Tomoya is legitimately her way to find happiness and fulfillment - Tomoya and others are quite likely projecting ideas of failure and lost opportunity on her. I think it is easy to see why - Tomoya doesn’t really do anything by the end of this route to make himself better, with everyone telling him he is dragging her down and his already low self esteem it felt inevitable. I was glad he had reached the point where he was willing to let her go for what he thought was her greater happiness. But in the end it is Tomoyo who should get the final say in what makes her happy.

When I was finished reading the route, even though I liked it, I think I was mourning a bit for Tomoyo choosing “the guy” over “success” but the more I thought about it I felt like it was really true to her character and motivations. Other peoples expectations of her, and abstract concepts like success were never what motivated her or made her happy. Relying on others expectations of you to find happiness is a doomed endeavor anyway.

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I just got to when Tomoyo gets elected which I hope is the turning point. I remember really liking this route but I’ve been super bored with it. There have been funny moments but a lot of it has just felt far too draggy.

I do love how of all the club activities they did the only one actually shown was baseball (also how according to the top left most of those as well as the voting all happened the same day)

Edit: After finishing I don’t have much to add but yeah it got better after she was elected but I still didn’t enjoy it nearly as much as I remembered.

Interesting how Misae tells Tomoya in the previous route that there shouldn’t be a problem with him being with a diligent girl if he just became diligent himself, considering their routes are directly connected like this.

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I’m gonna avoid reading other people’s posts until I’ve finished the route again but I just want to make a side comment in that it’s reaaaally interesting in how one of the main conflicts is how people are complaining about Tomoya being the cause of holding back Tomoyo when, in fact, most of the things that gets her a bad reputation is her own doing, really. Like using the PA system, or shirking her duties.

It’s interesting because it kind of shows how people already view Tomoya in such a negative light to the point that they refuse to think about things logically and just immediately put the blame on him because of his “delinquent” status.

Tomoyo being extremely aloof doesn’t help their case either :kurumu:

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It is true, a lot of the trouble she runs into has less to do with anything regarding Tomoya directly, and more because she is kind of a “my pace” person, and there is nothing to indicate that it would have been different even if her boyfriend was the most upstanding boy in school. I suppose if he was people might call her out directly then, but given the current circumstances Tomoya is basically the fall guy.

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