H-scenes in Visual Novels: Opinions and discussion

Off-Topic
#1

Thought I’d spice up things in the forum with something a bit more controversial. Basically, how do you all feel about H-scenes in Visual Novels? What do you do and how do you react when they come on screen?

While this isn’t entirely off-topic, as anybody who has played or is playing the english patch of Air or Tomoyo After would be well aware off, it isn’t as Key-related to warrant it to be in that category.

Right now, I avoid playing any games that have H-scenes, for personal reasons (which is why I have yet to play Air and Tomoyo after). Otherwise, I don’t have anything against it. Since VNs started from eroge, it seems inevitable that most companies would still do that practice, even if the story could have worked just as well without it.

But I do highly appreciate it when companies make the effort to at least make non-ero versions of their games (or release it without any ero at all). It gives off the statement that they want their stories to reach more than just the regular crowd of eroge players.

Just a note, if you’re referring to late-game information from a visual novel, please make sure to tag it in [spoiler] tags!

2 Likes
Visual Novel Recommendations (with filters)
Kazamatsuri.org » The Monthly Terra: August 2014 | Kazamatsuri.org
Kazamatsuri Awards 2014-2016 Nominations
#2

inb4Nick (whatever his name here is).

1 Like
#3

In an actual response, I certainly cannot like H scenes. I am a person who usually reads them through, however, and is the reason I am bothering to comment. There are scenes I will skip through no matter what, and scenes I read through.

They are undoubtedly wished to be removed by some of us who don’t need them, but there are those sorts of people out there who love them. And on the contrary to some beliefs, some H scenes actually help define a character (though that development many times didn’t need to occur during sex).

#4

An argument against using said scenes as a plot device would be that they can be done tastefully without having to actually show anything. First thing that comes into mind is Fal’s route in Symphonic Rain or Tsugumi route in Ever17

In that regard, I will never support the excuse that some stories need the explicit scenes to define the story or the characters. I believe that there is always a way to write such scenes while avoiding the H entirely. As such, I will only see sexually explicit H scenes in VNs as a means to sell the game as a form of pornography. That being said, though, I don’t have anything against pornography. Which is why I don’t have anything against H-scenes (as stated in my first post)

#5

Until late last year, I wouldn’t touch a VN that had H-Scenes in it (apart from Shuffle… which was before I knew some VNs had H-Scenes.) I don’t care if they use it for comedy, or a plot device, or just a way to shift units. If you have creepy stuff like that in your game, I’m not touching it. I kinda despise stuff like that… Makes me feel like I’m about to be sick.
Any story that uses such content as a means of developing a character is just using a cheap distasteful method to bolster sales.

Unfortunately there are only so many Visual Novels out there… I’d try and get people to make quick patches that remove the scenes, or have someone record the VN without showing those scenes. But again, only so many Visual Novels are being played by people. My method wasn’t on-demand at all~
Now I just wait for the creepy writing to start showing up, keep the BGM track in mind, then close my eyes and skip forward until the BGM track ends and transitions into a commonly-heard track from before. I say commonly-heard, because some VNs like to change the song mid-scene or something.

I actually really liked how Tomoyo After did it. Lots of people were talking about how the start is just H-Scenes, so I did the smart thing, and got a save file from just after the Opening Movie! Then there were no more from what I remember. I hear one of the bad ends has more, but that’s a bad end. Ain’t no body got time fo dat.

1 Like
#6

I usually try to avoid any VNs with H-Scenes, but there are a few ones that would actually be worse off if you cut them - Saya no Uta comes to mind. It’s used as a plot device there, as well as for setting a mood.

H-Scenes for the sake of H-Scenes is a great way to make me lose interest in a VN though. Especially if it’s the familiar “sex as a reward at the end of every route” pattern. You get people playing the game that are only after the H-Scenes, and that don’t actually care about the story. Some games don’t even have much of a story, just setup for the H-Scenes at the end… bleh.

2 Likes
#7

COUGH

2 Likes
#8

Oh wow, I remember that article! That was the first time I encountered the name “Aspirety” :stuck_out_tongue:

I even put in a comment there

#9

SHA LA LA LA LA LA OOOOOOOAH

Me gusta si, me gusta si…

5 Likes
#10

I hate to be the one who brings the mud to this otherwise calm and peaceful consensus thread, but someone had to disagree with the majority here. That said, I’d like to avoid offending anyone if at all possible, so i apologize is it seems like I’m coming off a little strong.

Before I get into my personal opinion on the matter, let’s start off with some facts and see where that goes.

  • The majority of VNs out there have H scenes at some point in them.
  • Generally speaking, VNs with H sell more than VNs without H.
  • Barring a few exceptions, H scenes are very low cost and easy to develop; meaning they have a good cost efficiency ratio.
  • VN development has very low entry requirements, just about anyone can make one (Katawa Shoujo anyone?)
  • Last but not least: the VN market is on the decline, and has been for quite some time now.

It should be pretty obvious by now that H scenes are basically keeping the VN market alive at this point. Regardless of whether people buy them as fap material or a story to read, the developers need that money to keep developing. Not to mention, a lot of new developers who may have great ideas can fairly easily market their games with H until they are well known enough to take it out. Had those new companies not used H, there’s a possibility that not many people would have read their works and thus they would not have sold well enough to keep developing. (in case anyone here is really that dense, I’m saying that if Kanon/Air did not have H scenes then Key might not have sold well enough to make Clannad H free, or even make Clannad at all.)

There’s much more to it than just what I’ve said, but if you can’t tell, I’m doing just about everything I can to keep this from turning into a huge opinionated argument, so I’ve left out certain parts in favor of allowing some discussion. Hopefully this will be enough food for thought to direct us away from slapping each other in the face with our opinions. Nobody wants that.

2 Likes
#11

Well yeah, that’s all pretty much fact. I think we’d all agree that without H scenes fueling the scene, the companies we know today wouldn’t be here. There’s a reason Key got praised so much for surviving in the industry with all-ages VNs. There’s also a reason so many people refused to buy Clannad, Little Busters, or Rewrite in hopes of an 18+ version.

An insane majority of VNs are eroge. A lot of people don’t even understand the difference between the two terms, because to them VNs are just a type of adult entertainment.

It also leaves a big impact on people in the west. Would Rance be as memorable to non-VN readers if it was just the gameplay? Probably not. More people might have been willing to play it, but less people would have heard about it. Would Katawa Shoujo be as popular without people jokingly summarizing it as “Oh, you try to have sex with disabled girls,” and stirring up controversy on Youtube? Probably not~

1 Like
#12

I completely understand why H-scenes exist. They are obviously to serve to a certain demographic. Jun Maeda was even quoted saying he didn’t think Air would have been very successful unless it was at least first released with adult content. While he went on to prove with Clannad (as well as Ever17 and Symphonic Rain did before it) that H-scenes are not necessary for a VN to sell well, very few can accomplish this because of the current VN market. Hell, many people in the west who complain about H-scenes don’t even spend money on the VNs in the first place (Thats just a generalization, I know you guys do, I’ve seen the show off your goods thread). So I do agree with @AngelofDeath720.

Unfortunately, a large percentage of H-scenes are very distasteful. They’re put in awkward places, do zero to advance the plot or character relationships, and sometimes are just H-scenes for the sake of H-scenes. Katawa Shoujo is a good example of this because not only was just about every H-scene completely unnecessary, many of them ruined the mood as well. And thats a FREE game, so its not even like it needed them to sell. Besides, if H-scenes were really that important, you wouldn’t be able to replace them with dragons, dolphins, and vampires (if you know what I mean :wink:)

That said, I really don’t mind H-scenes most of the time. While I would never read a VN for the H-scenes, I would certainly never refuse to read a good one just because of one or two possibly unnecessary or distasteful scenes per route.

3 Likes
#13

That is a really good point, actually. Sex sells, use that to get people to buy the game, then you can hook them in with the story and hope you sell well enough to not have to do this for your next game.

Didn’t the Grisaia developers say something about how they stuck truer to the VN medium’s norms than they’d like and that their next game (now that they’re basically overnight famous) would be less so?

#14

I have one question. How come more VNs don’t just have an on or off switch…? Why release multiple versions?

If you put it in the game for people that want it, okay- But you can also, seeing as it isn’t your focus and it’s merely to be accepted into a market dominated by it, allow for those with enough insight to be able to bypass it with ease.

1 Like
#15

I think that this is more than likely due to the fact that most readily available VN engines out there don’t allow for options that remove specific text. I played one recently that allowed for it, but they quite literally wrote the whole game from scratch in Java. Considering that the game only came out a few months ago, I would have expected them to just buy into one of the more common engines like SiglusEngine or BGI or something, but they wrote it in Java… I found that absolutely hilarious.

I’m actually reading one right now that fits just this role, only slightly different. It sold unusually well, considering how new the developer is, and a big part of that is because they had wonderful art and intriguing characters. Basically, if H scenes are the fire, they had better wood. Unfortunately, the story is crap, the characters didn’t turn out to be very enjoyable (except for one that I have a horrible bias towards), and the game overall does not flow well; BUT there were a couple things that they had done really well or that I had never seen in a VN before, and I would love to see another game from them that has refined some of its weaker points because I think they really have some unique ideas going.

#16

They need to get on updating some things, then… Seems like something that should be available these days. Drive tech forward and all. I think that’d alleviate a lot of issues.

#17

The porn with plot vs plot with porn debate

There are times when H scenes are vital to the story. A follower of mine talked about a company named Neko Neko Soft where it was the case.Then again, Key’s H scenes are among the worst written ones (only behind Type-Moon’s). There are the complaints about the girls acting off-character there. Dunno about LB!EX H-scenes against the behavior of the girls in the rest of the VN, though

H-scenes as rewards at the end of the eroge? Sounds so late 90’s…

1 Like
#18

I don’t think this is true at all. Look at anime like Now and Then, Here and There. They delve into subjects that, in a VN would be presented via a H-Scene, and everyone would be like “Oh, it’s vital to the story! If you take that scene out, you lose part of the experience.” The thing is, in most other story-telling media, they would just imply something happened.

There is a conscious choice in the VN industry to include H-Scenes. I find it hard to believe that something like F/SN or Kara no Shoujo would have suffered if the H-Scenes were replaced with a good build up that cuts straight to an aftermath - because that’s what a lot of books, movies, and TV shows do.

4 Likes
#19

As I said earlier, I think there is always a way to write these things tastefully. Even by simply not implying it and stating directly that intercourse occurred, it can still be done tastefully. I’m not one who thinks that all notion of sex should be avoided, as those can be used as very good plot devices. I just think that they can always be done in a manner that would not relegate them to be considered as, well, pornography.

I would like to think of a counterexample to this, i.e., a story that would suffer in impact or emotion if explicit H-scenes were to be replaced with generally safe sex scenes. The only such examples that I can think of are abusive ones involving sadistic themes but those are no longer considered “safe” because of totally different reasons. If anybody can suggest any counterexamples, I would be glad to listen.

I think you worded my thoughts pretty well by saying that there is a conscious choice. When a VN developer releases a game with H-scenes, what is their intent? Is it to sell it as pornograpic content? Or is it to enforce a story with the said scenes? For the former, then it is what it is. For the latter, see above argument. If both factors are intended, then they would have all the incentive to put them in. Which is why I appreciate it when the companies make a conscious decision not to do so. Not all companies can do that, of course, as it has been proven to be a very risky business choice, especially in this market.

1 Like
#20

*sigh… I tried guys. I did my best to keep this topic from straying into strict opinion territory, but I guess this thread was meant to be an argument anyways… I guess the best thing to do now is just start from the beginning and go from there…

I believe H scenes are a unique thing that is widely used in many visual novels, and is generally shied away from in many other mediums. It is because of this that there are many VNs that have a unique marriage between H and plot; and this relationship does not translate well into other, more standard, ways of telling a story. To this end, I believe that H scenes should be kept in the majority of VNs, and that the community should be more accepting of the unique aspects of the medium instead of ignoring them or attempting to get them removed.
As far as what I do when they come up, I should probably point out that I have never masturbated to an H scene in any VN, nor do I ever plan to. I generally just read them and try to pay extra attention to the character/story development going on. Thought in all fairness, if the game or any of the characters participating are really THAT bad, I have been known to skip them every once in a while.

*Points to @uppfinnarn’s post:

I don’t normally use SnU for this argument, but since it seems a few other people here have actually read it, I’ll go with it. Saya no Uta quite literally could not have been done without sex scenes. If you were to take those out you would be directly removing a HUGE part of the protagonist’s motivations and, perhaps more specifically, he would have lost his humanity. Having sex with Saya is part of what keeps Fuminori sane-ish.

[quote=“Takafumi, post:5, topic:401”]
Any story that uses such content as a means of developing a character is just using a cheap distasteful method to bolster sales.
[/quote]see above.
Some stories are written in an adult pretext and are meant to have mature content in them. Calling those stories distasteful is significantly offensive. (ESPECIALLY considering that I can’t taste very well because of my sense of smell… :()

[quote=“yerian98, post:12, topic:401”]
Unfortunately, a large percentage of H-scenes are very distasteful. They’re put in awkward places, do zero to advance the plot or character relationships, and sometimes are just H-scenes for the sake of H-scenes.
[/quote]There are definitely some out there that are absolutely terrible, yes, but I don’t think it’s quite as big of a number as you might be thinking. At least in my experience, those terrible scenes are pretty rare.

[quote=“JDAM_Cid, post:17, topic:401”]
There are times when H scenes are vital to the story. A follower of mine talked about a company named Neko Neko Soft where it was the case.
[/quote]Interesting… do you know if your follower would recommend their games? I’ve heard the name before, but I don’t know much about them.

[quote=“Takafumi, post:18, topic:401”]
The thing is, in most other story-telling media, they would just imply something happened.
[/quote]This is EXACTLY why I think they should be kept in. VNs have something special here that most other mediums never even had in the first place. Is it so bad to want to keep that unique aspect about them alive?

[quote=“Pepe, post:19, topic:401”]
I would like to think of a counterexample to this, i.e., a story that would suffer in impact or emotion if explicit H-scenes were to be replaced with generally safe sex scenes. The only such examples that I can think of are abusive ones involving sadistic themes but those are no longer considered “safe” because of totally different reasons. If anybody can suggest any counterexamples, I would be glad to listen.
[/quote]Anything by Sphere. KonoSora got a lot of backlash for IMHHW removing them. Hell, I could even argue that Eushully games would suffer without the H.
This is why I tend to not use SnU in my arguments though, since people just dismiss it with “oh, well that game was effed up anyways, so it doesn’t count.”

1 Like