Little Busters! - Common Route Discussion

[StarfishBender]

I have just reached the (good, I assume) end of Rin1 and I definitely see why you make the points above. The image shots you include really must serve a purpose I think beyond just adding a little “colour”.

The most fun part of this for me was beep beep, and just when I thought the route was going to drag on a bit too much, well avoiding spoilers to mark, it really caught me by surprise by ending. So this route just lasted long enough to tease without outstaying its welcome (for me!). I don’t want to say anything about Rin at this point, will leave it for the Rin character topic after Rin2.

[Aspirety]

It’s been wonderful seeing all these impressions, but I think it’s time to move the conversation to the next stage. I want you guys to try identifying key points you feel are important and warrant further analysis and discussion. You can highlight these topics in bold if you want us to discuss them on the podcast.

And please, don’t be shy veterans! I know you don’t want to spoil anything for the newcomers, but this is your thread too. There’s a lot of introspection and analysis that can be found even when putting yourself in the shoes of a first time reader.

I know it’s just the common route, but there’s definitely a lot to reflect on, particularly with the nature of the characters. I’ll start. What do you think of Riki? What makes him different from other VN protagonists? I’d really like to try getting into his head a bit more.

[MagusVerborum]

Alright alright, this really is a challenge now I generally think I’m pretty good at figuring out characters, so let’s give Riki a look.

May 22nd gives us an excellent point to stop and reflect on the game so far with its end scene. The infamous ‘sleepover’ where Riki is corralled into yet another wacky hijink by the people around him. The difference this time? All of the girls are in on it. Komari, Kurugaya, Kud, Mio, Haruka, even Rin who is bribed with a healthy amount of catfood (whether for her own consumption or her cats I’m not 100% sure) and everyone has a fantastic time. The entire night revolves around the joke that Riki shouldn’t be here, like it’s a big breaking of taboo. This is set up nicely earlier with Kud’s talk about the battleline to keep the boys out, and yet there never really is any problem with letting Riki in. Why? Because he makes people comfortable.

The typical protagonist of a harem story (which really is what we’re dealing with here) is confident, pervy, though sometimes chivalrous, and all about showing off how great he is to the other characters. They push for relationships. Riki seems to just stumble into the others, they see that he is a caring person that would have a positive influence on their lives and they seek him out, it’s a much more natural and subtle relationship. Riki even asks himself in the narration:

He’s clueless. He doesn’t know what about himself is attractive, he just is. We see this all the time in his interactions with Kyousuke, who is always prompting him to take a leadership role and telling him what a great job he’s doing, and the narration’s response (Riki’s thoughts) is always something along the line of “I only did it because you told me to” or “it was your idea” he has difficulty judging what of his actions is under his responsibility, and constantly devalues himself. No wonder he’s so depressed!

Riki doesn’t see himself as someone who can be relied upon, and yet is the most reliable person on the team, even back when the team started he was the only one left training after everyone else had disappeared. So, what does this mean for Riki as a protagonist?

Well, he’s not just a self-insert character. Typically protagonists are designed so you can insert yourself seamlessly into them, and harem-genre stories are there for the reader’s fantasy in, well, having relationships with cute girls. Interestingly we have a protagonist who doesn’t want to push that relationship to the limit, denying the fantasy of the reader. Kurugaya “the Wise” even points this out during the night:

She’s super self-aware, which I love. She’s also voicing the thoughts of the entire ‘harem’. Everyone knows Riki would never take advantage of a situation like this, and the chances of the stereotypical “accidental boob grab” gag and others like it occurring is very low. The way that the characters tease Riki in this scene is to highlight that this novel isn’t about sex, but about real relationships between the characters.

Riki is there to help Rin, and help everyone to deal with their discomfort and deal with their own individual problems. This is something else that I talked about when discussing ‘sanctuaries’ because in this instance Riki has been brought in to help Rin, Riki is her ‘sanctuary’ a person whom she can feel safe around. The behaviour of teasing Riki also contributes to this, even though he constantly complains I think he really does enjoy the whole show of it.

And there we have it. Compared to a typical harem protag, who would be constantly complaining about not getting to see from underneath the towel and trying to get a peek, inevitably touching something he shouldn’t for the punchline… well, Riki’s a good guy. He doesn’t make advances and his decent personality draws people to him naturally. He fits in so smoothly with the group of girls that he even elicits this response from Rin when he’s forced to dress up in a uniform of the opposite gender:

He’s just another one of the girls

Everything that happens in this novel is in good faith. Everyone that’s teased has a good time with it, I personally am not a fan of protagonists who are obsessed with panty-spotting and other such devious harem fanservice so this makes a nice change of pace. Just keep Mr Bear out of this!

A typical harem protagonist (for reference)

Key Points of Discussion: Riki once thought that Komari might be sacrificing too much of herself to make others happy, do you think Riki suffers from a similar problem? Do you think that his lack of assertiveness is a problem? Can you think of any other harem protagonists who share qualities of Riki?

I’d love to hear your thoughts, especially on the VN side. I haven’t read a large amount myself!

[DangoDaikazoku]

I’ll try my best with this. I see Riki as someone who’s matter-of-fact but not tactless. He isn’t shy to admit that he finds the antics of his friends (and the girls he meets) a bit confusing and difficult to relate, but simultaneously, he makes the effort to try to engage with them. Although he’s not immune to this sort of thing, he’s more likely to keep snide remarks and trollish exploitation in his head. Verbally, he will go out of his way to try to relate to someone’s point-of-view, rather than dismissing him outright, displaying an understated sincerity that makes those around him rather fond of him. It’s hard to dislike someone who’s simultaneously honest, yet still wants to get to know and appreciate you. The only thing that throws a wrench in this is his bad past experiences. A parentless background he hasn’t fully come to terms with has left him with a family he’s dreading will leave him some day. This is kind of coming into a head (as others have noted) as high school wears on, and his mentor/big brother surrogate, Kyousuke, preps to leave. He’s never been endowed with much responsibility or expectations to perform, so when complimented or pressured to do more, he reacts hesitantly. He completely fails to recognize his quiet strength. Additionally, up until recently, he’s always been “the new guy”, so it’s pretty much his role to play what some would consider the “audience surrogate” and be the passive observer who relates and connects to his friends wild personalities, while still being grounded enough to connect with those outside his circle. Truly, it’s this skill that others see potential in, particularly Kyousuke himself. Along with his passivity, however, comes a desire to resist change. He doesn’t like the idea of being imbued with leadership responsibilities, and he’s the one most likely to resist efforts to make Rin more outgoing. Of the Busters so far, he has shown the one least interested in going against the natural order of things and trying something new (ie., pushing the exisiting Busters into new roles, taking precedent over Kyousuke, etc.).

While I won’t deny there’s some character there, I can’t honestly say it makes him a very fun character to watch in conversations. I just don’t see enough flavor in his dialogue, he’s just too straightforward. He plays the straight man, but because his barbs aren’t as savage or witty as earlier Key protagaonists, the humor coming from his reactions often isn’t much more than “Let me point out that what is happening here is a bit odd, don’t you see?”. I have trouble finding very funny, especially when done numerous times.

On a side note, though, I would like to point out it’s pretty common in harems to see a bland, uninteresting MC who’s not perverted, just ends up in perverted situations through bizarre comedic coincidences (the most popular example would be Love Hina), but it’s made fairly clear the characters themselves aren’t supposed to be perverts, and that the fact the incident is an accident is supposed to be a comedy.

[MagusVerborum]

Do you think that his lack of assertiveness is a problem?

Now that I think about it, Isn’t Kyousuke pretty assertive? I wonder if he would make a more traditional harem protagonist

Of the Busters so far, he has shown the one least interested in going against the natural order of things and trying something new (ie., pushing the exisiting Busters into new roles, taking precedent over Kyousuke, etc.).

I think this is pretty telling, he’s the most ‘passive’ of the group and doesn’t want to act despite knowing that the good times have to end eventually. Arc Quote:

Will he act to ensure a positive future I wonder? Will he be able to face the future hardship and break out of his passive stance? Will he stop wishing for pleasant times and instead pursue them with all his might (like best boy Kyousuke)? Only time will tell~

[Naoki_Saten]

What do you think of Riki? What makes him different from other VN protagonists? I’d really like to try getting into his head a bit more.

First, there’s the point that several people have picked up on and which I’ve talked about in my previous post: Riki is surprisingly negative. If you do something he doesn’t understand, chances are, he’ll assume you have ulterior motives or downright bad intentions. As another example, you can cancel the progression to Rin route during common route when Rin gets the “perform a riposte” mission. If you do, Riki explains this decision by assuming that the sender of the letters is using Rin for his own amusement!

There’s also the part where he can behave calmly and naturally around girls and girls, in turn, drop his guard around him since they don’t consider him a threat. But we’ve already been there.

Another point is that Riki is, to my mind, the protagonist with the most “heart” among all Key protagonists, because even by a protagonist’s standards, the dedication he shows to his friends and lovers is enormous. Admittedly, we don’t really see that part of him just yet in the common route.

However, he is not your typical nice guy, even though he totally seems to be one. No, this does not contradict the previous point. Let me explain:
Many protagonists, especially those from harem settings, are just nice guys by nature. Riki, however, does nice things - despite being negative - for a certain reason. That reason is most obvious in the Mio events of the common route. Riki sees Mio all alone and isolated and wishes to pull her into his group of friends, like Kyousuke did for him when he was suffering. In other words, Riki is being nice because he knows from experience that kindness can save people.

[Takafumi]

Despite having a different way of expressing himself, Riki is at his core very similar to previous Key protagonists.
In my blog post about Maeda’s signature writing style, I describe Orihara Kouhei (the protagonist of ONE) as such: “He is harsh, he gives up quickly, he feels disconnected from the world, and he causes a lot of problems.”
Looking at those four traits, Riki commonly fits two (gives up + disconnected) and occasionally fits the other two. He’s a kid who is stuck in time, much like his counterpart Rin. The thing that makes him appear (at first) drastically different from previous Key protagonists is his admiration Kyousuke; Riki is one of the few Key protagonists to have a reliable figure to trust and to learn from, and as such Riki expresses a desire to become like Kyousuke, which creates an inclusively welcoming character in Riki.

Much like how Rin desires friendship but struggles to breach familiarity and break out of her shell, Riki desires happiness but is stuck in a pessimistic acceptance of the norm. Despite these problems, Riki and Rin have a group of long-established friends that understand these issues and want to help. While Riki may give up mentally, with the help of his friends he continues. While Riki may feel disconnected from the world, he always wakes up to a fighting couple and an ikemen.

[VyseGolbez]

There would actually be a point I’m interested in. Back when I started reading, I posted the following question in the discord:

Is anyone else weirded out by Rin suddenly sprouting cat ears in various scenes?

That question basically got no reaction. But I am curious; and veterans, just try to remember when you first read to answer this: How did you react towards those scenes that break realism? As the above question implies, for me it actually broke immersion a bit, but I’m curious what everyone else thinks/thought.

[Takafumi]

I don’t think I really thought about it all that much, it was just a way to present her cat-like nature within the constraints of still image. Nothing I hadn’t seen before.

[StarfishBender]

Not weirded out exactly, but I’m assuming that feline pose this along with her being surrounded by hellspawn; sorry, I mean cats, is significant in some way to the “bigger picture” beyond what we simply see. If not then yes it’s breaking realism for no obvious purpose other than to be quirky?

As for the other issue raised elsewhere: Riki, I don’t know - I just can’t be bothered to think that much about him TBH.

[MagusVerborum]

Riki, I don’t know - I just can’t be bothered to think that much about him TBH.

Poor Riki-kun

[StarfishBender]

LOL, well I am sure that may change as I progress much further into the character routes, but he just doesn’t inspire me into creative/analytical thought for now, but at least he isn’t annoyingly superpowered like the “hero” in Grisaia…

Unpopular thought, hidden only to avoid outrage:

and I find Kyousuke much the same as well as Team Bro’s

[MagusVerborum]

Here’s the thing, I think it’s totally fine to not like a character (perception is subjective after all) but I would be very interested to hear exactly why, it’s entirely possible that your concerns will be satisfied by later in the novel, and it might even be possible to take a look at them from a different angle to appreciate them a bit more.

This happened with Komari and Sasami for me, I was concerned at first that they would be the generic fanservice and obligatory ‘rival club’ characters respectively, but Komari turned out to have a big heart and is generally aware of her problems, with Sasami is written as such a great parody of the student-villain i can’t help but laugh ow every time Rin gets her name wrong, or she takes something badly and ends up fighting Rin (again). I can tell that both characters have been written and voice-acted by creators who are aware of their tropes and are working to their advantage.

That said, honestly, Kengo has yet to pick up for me. He seems to only be there to highlight Masato and give some context. Regardless of whether or not he turns out to be super important later (he probably will) I don’t think he has been very well represented so far, he’s kind of 2d. He likes Kendo and fights Masato. That’s it.

[StarfishBender]

I think it’s totally fine to not like a character

It’s not that I don’t like Riki, just that I don’t feel anything much at all any more than I feel about, say, a cupboard. I don’t know, maybe it’s because he reminds me so far of myself as a teen (apart from being an apparent chick magnet). Maybe that’s exactly what the writers intended, a person that things (initially?) seem to happen around rather than because of.

Anyway, let’s wait to see how things progress, and then I’ll go to the Riki character thread later so I can see how just how horribly wrong I am!

(I should just say November is a bad month for me for many reasons, so my feelings on LB are probably swayed towards the negative/apathetic by that).

[Mogaoscar]

How did you react towards those scenes that break realism?

I didn’t welcome it since everything is a pretty normal SoL and cat ears just don’t seem to fit at first, but it’s easy to get used to it and now I have no problem with that.

That said, honestly, Kengo has yet to pick up for me. He seems to only be there to highlight Masato and give some context. Regardless of whether or not he turns out to be super important later (he probably will) I don’t think he has been very well represented so far, he’s kind of 2d. He likes Kendo and fights Masato. That’s it.

(Possible spoilers about common route) That’s Kengo for your during the first common run. From then on, Kengo participates in so many scenes that seem inconsequential but are actually full of minor details that make Kengo’s character very deep. And this is one of the best things of LB common route: The changes in common route, in conjunction with what you know from doing the character routes, makes every common run unique in a sense, and characters that looked like a filler now have an intricate personality shaped by tons of minor events.

[MagusVerborum]

Kengo participates in so many scenes that seem inconsequential

Nothing is inconsequential my friend. My eyes are peeled… Like some kind of apple eyes, ready for a salad.

[Tidulimar]

There would actually be a point I’m interested in. Back when I started reading, I posted the following question in the discord:

Is anyone else weirded out by Rin suddenly sprouting cat ears in various scenes?

That question basically got no reaction. But I am curious; and veterans, just try to remember when you first read to answer this: How did you react towards those scenes that break realism? As the above question implies, for me it actually broke immersion a bit, but I’m curious what everyone else thinks/though

I personally react to that as only a quirky design thing. She is very much a cat person. She wears a bell, she hisses - thinking of her as a catgirl as times does not feel wrong and that’s a bit selfawareness having her sprite reflect that at times. Similar for Kud. So…yeah, not thinking much about it.

Key Points of Discussion: Riki once thought that Komari might be sacrificing too much of herself to make others happy, do you think Riki suffers from a similar problem? Do you think that his lack of assertiveness is a problem? Can you think of any other harem protagonists who share qualities of Riki?

I think Riki is pretty similar to this in many regards, as he is very willing to help and listen and do things for others, even if he often thinks he is not the perfect person for it.
However, I think that might be, so some extend, a general role all harem protagonists (galge especially) have to fill. They really cannot get closer to their girls of choice without being nice to them, and that usually means sometimes sacrificing somethings for themselves, even if it is “just” time or work. The extend that this happens varies greatly, but I still think it generally happens.
I think Kotarou is a good example, although most of it happens during the character routes and not during common. (vague Rewrite spoilers) (Although he also is a very special circumstance the way “Key magic” is applied in Rewrite)

Unfortunatly, I don’t have to say more about Riki than others have already said, so I’ll leave @Aspirety s proposed Key discussion point out for now.

[MagusVerborum]

I know I just said nothing is inconsequential but I feel like May 23rd is another one of those chill days. There are some important scenes in here but nothing terribly new that I can see, just a lot of support for other thoughts and theories.

There was one scene that stood out to me in particular however…

(Kanata?) Futaki is given a proper introduction. She’s blunt, she’s kinda mean, she has a strict code of conduct. What’s interesting to me about this ‘lawful good’ archetype character is that she doesn’t stop with just enforcing the rules, she tells Komari explicitly that though her lack of jacket isn’t technically ‘breaking the rules’ it’s still sets a bad example for the other students. She says:

Woah, that’s pretty intense slowly backs away.

She’s very dutiful, and has a strong code defining how everyone else at the school should act. She’s basically the exact opposite of Haruka! Who has a totally different last name, and couldn’t possible be related to her in any way…

Hmm… i wonder who else has a habit of forcing her way into a scene, completely changing the mood to fit her own goals.

Anywho, I was just reminded of that one time Haruka destroyed the entire Earth by cleaning poorly!
Thankfully she managed to deliver these gems before she left this mortal coil:

She even has an adorable apron she cleans in! Gah she never fails to steal my heart away <3

Of course i would be remiss to talk about Kyousuke on this day, I am now more convinced than ever that if any mortal is behind the feline-messages, it has to be him (unless he’s a giant red herring for Kengo but I shall stand on this rock until it is revealed to be either sand or rock!). Towards the beginning of the day Rin and Riki provide some more clues as to the identity of the cat-catcher-and-releaser! Riki comes to this conclusion about the tasks:

So I think any the of the original busters are still strong contenders, that was the whole reason for their forming after all. The Little Busters ‘punish evil and preserve justice’ which well, isn’t exactly what’s happening right now, but the same intent to do good is still there. I could easily imagine the dismantling of a beehive like in the far past being one of the tasks that Rin and Riki are asked to undertake today. Furthermore, I think many of us have determined that Kyousuke is trying to help Rin and Riki to reach their full potential. We also know that Kyousuke will undertake any trial for the benefit of the group, as evidenced by ‘The 1th Let’s Make Kyousuke Wave The White Flag Championship’ where, surprise, Kyousuke set himself up seeming to not want to hang out with his friends but in doing that made it so that everyone hung out and had a good time.

Kyousuke has proven his acting ability time and time again, he’s shown his desire to help Rin and Riki in particular to be more proactive members of the club and to take on challenges, be leaders. I think he’s the perfect candidate for some duplicitous task-giving designed to help them unlock their potential.

But… perhaps this is all too obvious? Let me know what you think guys,

Key point: Who do you think is behind the cat messages? Is it one of my prime suspects Kyousuke and Kengo? Is Rin a scheming schemer and doesn’t know it? Is it all one big coma feverdream? Are the illuminati actually behind all of this and Helios is just trying to throw me off by putting the answers right in my face??? Tune in next time on Magus digs himself a spiral-happiness shaped hole!

EDIT: I should probably update this to say that I am not opposed to a Kyousuke x Kengo theory! I wouldn’t be surprised if Kengo is doing all the murdering placing of cat messages (it would explain why he was ready for Riki and Rin’s attack during the lovesickness task) while Kyousuke… goes job hunting? I’m just not sure why Kyousuke needs a middle man for this he’s clearly capable of handing out these tasks on his own. Kengo does certainly fit the silent older brother archetype, the spiritual backbone of the group watching over the rest. Well, I’ll need some more clues to decide i think.

[Tidulimar]

Key point: Who do you think is behind the cat messages? Is it one of my prime suspects Kyousuke and Kengo? Is Rin a scheming schemer and doesn’t know it? Is it all one big coma feverdream? Are the illuminati actually behind all of this and Helios is just trying to throw me off by putting the answers right in my face??? Tune in next time on Magus digs himself a spiral-happiness shaped hole!

Clearly the Illuminati! Given your analysis so far, I think Kyousuke is a good bet…however, I as well would not throw Kengo out of the boat. I seriously have no idea what his deal is, but there must be one. Meeeeeeeeeen!

When I first read these parts, I did not think too much into it, and was not even considering it could be someone we know. That’s also a thing in my mind it could be right now: what if it is either someone we don’t know or…there is just noone. If there really is a secret of that world, depending on how that is shaped, I think it is entirely possible that there is no sender at all.
(However, my best bet right now is Kyousuke)

[Karifean]

That question basically got no reaction. But I am curious; and veterans, just try to remember when you first read to answer this: How did you react towards those scenes that break realism? As the above question implies, for me it actually broke immersion a bit, but I’m curious what everyone else thinks/thought.

Having seen the anime before reading the VN, I thought pretty much nothing of it. The anime uses the ‘cat ears’ metaphor far more sparingly.

@MagusVerborum I always found it funny how Kengo both plays the straight man to the others’ antics and still plays along with them anyways =P He’s still part of the battle rankings (the only non baseball team member in it) and takes part in just about everything they do besides baseball.

Many protagonists, especially those from harem settings, are just nice guys by nature. Riki, however, does nice things - despite being negative - for a certain reason. That reason is most obvious in the Mio events of the common route. Riki sees Mio all alone and isolated and wishes to pull her into his group of friends, like Kyousuke did for him when he was suffering. In other words, Riki is being nice because he knows from experience that kindness can save people.

I’d even go further and say that his reason is not just because of what he experienced, but rather because of what he experiences. It’s like he said at the end of his flashback, he just didn’t have time to think about negative things because every day was too much fun; he didn’t have a single event that brought him out of his depression, it’s a process that’s still ongoing (which is part of why he’s afraid of the idea of it ending). I don’t think I can understate how much Little Busters makes me smile simply because of how much warmth and kindness is in even just the cast’s everyday interactions. That bit where Riki has a narcolepsy attack is just hnnnngh.