Holy crap I didnât even make that connection, but I love it. Makes me less annoyed that they changed the ending in the rereleases.
Yeah, I feel exactly the same way with Rewrite. Although I guess it has been established that those failed experiments, along with many others, were needed to find the true ending, it still doesnât give the other routes much⌠significance
The idea of multiple endings and a âtrue routeâ is a concept that only truly exists in games. Itâs based on the thought that the player deserves a reward for playing especially well and exploring the game more than he actually needed to in order technically âcompleteâ it by reaching an ending.
The same logic applies to the idea of âunlockingâ content by completing certain tasks and mastering challenges.
VNs are not the only games with multiple endings. Many other games also have them. For example, thereâs the âSuikodenâ RPG series. In that game, you can recruit OVER 100 CHARACTERS for your cause and freely choose party members from that pool. But in order to complete the game, you donât need all of them. If you just go straight down the storyline, youâll barely encounter even 40 of them. But the ending youâll receive depends on the number of recruited characters. The normal endings always feel a bit sad and you canât help but wish you could have do something about it. And indeed, if you manage to recruit all recruitable characters, youâll get the perfect ending.
Aside from the function of a task you need to complete in order to unlock the true route, side routes in VNs also have the purpose of expanding the universe of the game, giving more depth to characters and develop them individually. If a game only had one route, it would have to skip over certain characters and events, making them shallow and less significant. Key does an especially good job here because their strategy is based on getting the reader emotionally attached to the characters. Therefore, side routes are supposed to make the game better as a whole and make various preparations for the âtrueâ or âmainâ route.
To me, âgoodâ side routes are those that have either a canonical or emotional bearing on the final route and/or make you feel better about the game as a whole while the ânot so goodâ ones are just âmore stuff to readâ. This also means that I also like side routes that donât contribute to the plot of the main route if they are pleasant to read and especially if I didnât like the main route in the first place.
The ânot so goodâ side routes would be those of âG-Senjou no Maouâ where neither the side heroines nor their stories contribute much to the main route and their emotionial impact and plot is nowhere near the main routeâs one.
âGoodâ side stories would be those of Little Busters, because they make you grow attached to all its characters and the main story introduces a conflict that involves ALL of those characters.
A somewhat weird example of side routes I consider âgoodâ are those of Rewrite. Why? Because they do a wonderful job of introducing the characters and establish the setting in detail (and theyâre pleasant to read) while I dislike the main route, partially for not letting those characters play any meaningful roles in it.
Therefore Iâd say what matters most is whether the individual routes contribute positively to your overall experience of the game or not.
I agreed with you up until the examples~ ^^;
In G-Senjou I liked the side routes. Sure, they pretty much abandoned all connection with the main story, but that doesnât matter to me, because the side routes had their own stories that were great. Itâs nice to see how everything could end up, and at the end of the VN, I felt like the memories of the side routes came back to impact me during the final scenes.
As for Litbus I felt that the side routes were itâs downfall. Just stepping stones on the way to the ending. It didnât make me care for characters more than before I read the VN (it actually made me dislike most of them) and the heroines were tossed aside as an afterthought in Refrain. Refrain probably wouldnât have been as good without the side routes, but with the way it was done, the side routes actually made me think less of it overall.
Wow, lots of differing opinions here. Makes for a pretty interesting read!
I like how @naoki_saten views it as a game reward; VNs are games after all. But in games, isnât it kind of troublesome sometimes to go through sidequests to get the true ending?
I think we all agree though that if those sidequests are great stories, they are their own reward
If youâre going the extra trouble of playing sidequests, then youâre either a perfectionist who wonât consider the game completed until heâs seen all of it (or at least the true ending), or you enjoy the game so much you just want to keep playing it as long as there are new things to discover, so you normally wouldnât mind it. The trick to creating a good game, however, is to not let the player get the feeling âah, this is a sidequestâ in the first place. They, too, need to be enjoyable. If youâre only making them to stall for time, youâre doing it wrong.
Yes! I recently said something about this in the Planetarian discussion. That world is HUGE, but we only get to experience a fraction of it. Hoshi no Hito helps, but I think Planetarian could have actually been even better if there had been other routes exploring other Junkers, or villages, or the backstory of the war.
Iâd like to bring G-Senjou No Maou to the stand.
Looking at the main route and side stories, you really arenât needed to read them for the main story. Tsubakiâs route literally ditches the main plot at the end, Kanonâs actually has some relevance to the main story but in the end ditches it, and donât get me started on Mizuha.
But, it all depends on the reader himself. If you didnât like the Chapter and how it focused on that one character, donât read her route. If you did, read it. Itâs simple.
Regarding Little Busters!, the anime showed us how much the routes mean to Riki and Rin and how it strengthens them to fight back and save their friends. That is one way of having the routes bear significant importance to the plot.
Rewrite not so much since the world ends in practically half of them.
Iâm not sure what my point is now.
Or they force you to play side-quests in order to unlock the main quest
I got some theories about little busters individual routes having a lot to do with the main story, plz tell me if i´m being too crazy with itâŚ
**komariâs route:riki had to learn about death and how hard could it be to deal with it.
**harukaâs route: riki had to learn about isolation and how hard could society be.
**mioâs route: he had to learn about the cold society can be in regards to oue dreams, creativity and imagination and how hard could it be to deny our own desires and dreams ( I think it is a very deep route so Iâd have to work more on this part of the theory):
kurugaya: riki had to face the cruelty arround love and how our dreams not always come true(got to work all bit on this too)
**kud: riki had to learn how awful and vicious may society be when it comes to political issues
**rinâs route: riki had to learn to face people (even his loved ones) in order to achieve his own goals and stay true to himselfâŚ
so that is all about it, I know this is an old thread but I found it triying to spend my idle time and I really feel like I had to share my theory
Just think about Airâs anime adaption would have been so much better without those irrelevant routes and characters being adapted into it.
For Air, I think the individual routes donât help much, since they donât even appear much, other than in their own routes.
For Kanon, I think the individual routes actually helped the story. Each route made him remember his time in the town 7 years ago, unlocking his memories, which ultimately lead and build up towards the true end.
For CLANNAD, each route was very Family-Themed, okay, at least over 98% of them, plus, you needed the Light orbs in each route from the happy ending to unlock the true ending. The character routes itself was not as relevant to After Story, but shared the message, also helping to actually unlock the true end.
For Little Busters, I think the character routes were beneficial to the main story, but didnât exactly carry the theme of âfriendshipâ that was supposed to be shown in this VN. The routes werenât beneficial to the true route/true ending though. Itâs like saying Refrain doesnât involve those routes being beneficial to the story, but Refrain canât be unlocked without completing the heroineâs routes and fulfilling the regrets that they have, since the main purpose of the artificial world (for the individual heroines), was to fulfill the regrets they had. I guess you can say that Refrain caused the character routes to happen, instead of the character routes helping Refrain. There are messages in each route that help the true end, but you can say the same thing about Rewrite.
For Angel Beats!, it was honestly the only Key-creation where the routes are actually beneficial to the story. The routes actually help with the things and events that happen in Angel Beats. The events that happen in Angel Beats causes the routes to be beneficial and having a bearing on the story. I guess that going into 18-21 back stories is really lame though, when most of us donât even care for all the characters. With Angel Beats, the individual stories and backgrounds help the main story, and helps the ending to a certain extent. I guess you can say that the ending could still happen even if the individual routes werenât there, but you could argue that they needed to be there if the characters were there, not to mention Yuzuruâs idea of what he needs to do. Which was to Obliterate everyone, so they wouldnât be turned into NPCâs, and also so they could finally accept their brutal lives that they lived when they were alive
For Rewrite, I guess you can say that those certain routes helped the true route. I wonât say anything much about Rewrite, since my opinion on it is really biased, since I do love Rewrite.
For CLANNAD and LB, I guess you can say LB and CLANNAD is quite different. After Story and Refrain is basically the main purpose to the routes before those events. But the only difference is that in After Story You cannot unlock it without having the light orbs from each routes happy ending. The light orbs makes the route relevant. but with Refrain, thereâs really nothing but foreshadowing, so the individual routes donât exactly have the same importance as CLANNAD. In individual routes in LB build up for Refrain, yet can be taken out, and the story wouldnât be much different. Riki would probably be the only different thing/person that changes⌠The individual routes in CLANNAD donât build up to After Story, but canât be taken out if you want to unlock the true ending.
I donât really think individual routes having substantial bearing on the âmain storyâ is really all that significant provided the route itself is actually good.
Most of the routes in CLANNAD are completely irrelevant to the main story (that is, Nagisa route + After Story). You could just reduce the number of light orbs needed for After Story, delete most of the school arc routes, and lose no narrative value in Nagisaâs route. The only routes in CLANNAD that actually contribute to the main narrative are really Kotomiâs (explains the parallel worlds) and Misaeâs (explains and demonstrates that the light orbs really do grant wishes), and the rest are just kind of fluff. Itâs good fluff for the most part, but fluff nonetheless. The routes are all united by common themes, but that doesnât make them relevant to the main story.
This is slightly less true for Little Busters because of all the common route alterations that happen as you progress, but the overall narrative of Rinâs routes + Refrain wouldnât really be all that negatively impacted by the simple deletion of most of other routes. Of course, there IS the fact that you need a certain number of people for a baseball team, so the common route wouldnât really be a thing if there were less characters.
In short: I donât think itâs significant that each individual route contributes to the larger narrative. If the routes themselves are good, they add awesome touches where there would be none (see: CLANNAD having one of the most well developed casts of side characters of just about everything ever).
I mean, the âmain storyâ of both CLANNAD and LB pretty much donât exist without the other routes; Im not sure how you could even argue otherwise.
As Iâve read more VNs, Iâve found that I really tend to enjoy the medium more when the routes that in some way culminate in some âmain storyâ or âtrue end.â Its a really brilliant way to use the unique mechanics of the medium. I donât know, maybe I was just spoiled by the way Little Busters! used it perfectly.
[quote=âTotoro_Futaki, post:36, topic:423â]
I guess that going into 18-21 back stories is really lame though, when most of us donât even care for all the characters
[/quote]Still cant figure out why people would say this. Many people, in fact, are extremely interested in all of them. I dont think its lame or boring at all. Speak for yourself.
Also @ThePlasticSpork be careful, try to use highest discretion when treading into spoiler territory.
After Story and Refrain could exist without the individual routes though. The only difference is that the endings would be different, and the plot would differ not that much, but slightly.
Now about Angel Beats, itâs not that people arenât interested. Everyoneâs interested in the back stories, but it seems like overkill wasting much time on all of those members. Think about Angel Beats!'s plot itself. Going into all those routes is beneficial to the story, but also seems pointless at the same time. I actually think their routes and back stories would be the most interesting out of any Key VN/anime. But over 18 routes ? Thatâs not exactly delightful.
If it would have to change without them, that makes them significant lol
If itâs only slightly. It doesnât make a difference. It should change greatly if the routes had an actual effect on the story.
While in general I agree with consensus of how the individual routes of CLANNAD and Little Busters are important to the main story, I would also argue that Rewriteâs routes are kinda necessary too. (Rewrite spoilers below)
To me, Rewrite is about different perspectives, and how those perspectives affect oneâs actions, with the central argument being based on the perspectives of Gaia and Guardian. Now story wise I wonât deny that many of the side routes donât have that much of an impact on the end results, but they do have some. During Moon, Kotarou remembers all the possible routes that he took, and that affects his interactions with Kagari. One could argue that Kagari would have made Terra happen anyway regardless of Kotauouâs actions, but thereâs really not much supporting that.
Thereâs also the consideration of the reader. To me, Terra is about Kotauou looking at both the different perspectives within the argument, and deciding to accept them both so that he can create happy memories for Kagari. It wouldnât make sense to suddenly present that without showing the different perspectives and mentalities of Gaia and Guardian beforehand. So even if plot wise thereâs not that much reason to do the previous routes, thematically it makes sense that all those different routes are there because they are used to show those different perspectives.
This echoes my feelings too. I can see how the alternative routes in AIR could be considered as insignificant deviations since the âgoodâ ends have no impact on the true end, but each of them does add meaningfully as @DaBackpack says to the narrative ( yes even Kanoâs albeit a weak route and Minagi being overlong).
However you could of course - if the VN allowed - finish AIR without completing those routes without missing anything truly significant in terms of the whole story and the impact might even not be weakened. Although I am glad of the existence of the routes, Kano and Minagi do feel like the closest thing in a Key VN I have completed to dating sim territory.
Then again, I have ploughed my way through tons of RPGs with the inevitable numerous L1 âkill the rats / goblinsâ, FedEx fetch and carry sidequests to level up and maybe a tolerance of this is more ingrainedâŚ
So the word for this thread is [Diegetic]. If something is diegetic that means it exists within the universe of the story. Most of the time this word is used to describe music in film. There isnât actually a full storm trooper orchestra playing Imperial March wherever Darth Vader goes, but the music in the cantina in Mos Eisley is performed by an in-universe band etc.
Thereâs lots of things in VNs that can be diegetic or non-diegetic, but this thread is basically about whether the muli-route structure of the games is diegetic. Multiple routes is just an industry standard, and players expect that from galge regardless if theyâre diegetic or non-diegetic.
In Key games routes are diegetic most of the time because of various concepts theyâve come up with over the years. I probably wouldnât say routes are diegetic in Air since I donât recall the text ever directing your attention to it, but there is the thing with the bird; Air doesnât throw you many bones. Clannad has a very brief comment about what makes the routes diegetic towards the end. Since Clannad though, they committed hard to making all routes diegetic, coming up with way more elaborate shenanigans.
Those later ones are fun and all, but I feel itâs starting to restrict the storytelling. Characters being stuck in a time-loop/groundhog day scenario has become oh so very common. If we could just dial it back a bit?