CLANNAD - Tomoyo Sakagami Route & Character Discussion

Key Discussion
#110

Ah Tomoyo, my most favorite heroine in CLANNAD. And oh, I’m based this on VN part not Anime. Anime shows but piss poor representation of relationship between Tomoyo x Tomoya.

While there’s a big ANNOYANCE from me for stupid situation in this route, most particularly because of Tomoya’s stupidity, I can still say I quite like the route as a whole.

Let’s bring the fact that Tomoya is a guy. A man. A boy. Whatever. While boy is definitely more apt, but Tomoya is a guy. A man. A goddamn man doesn’t act like crap like Tomoya is doing here. GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

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Ok rant aside, I gotta say that the two main characters here are very underdeveloped in this route. No matter how you look at it, Tomoyo’s characteristics have been established so strongly from the beginning. She’s strong, both physically and mentally, has dedication (that results in her good grades for example) and set her sight on the goals she wanted (preserving the Sakura trees). Of course over time, her interaction with Tomoya means she also has set another new goal on top of her previous one, that’s it, to be together with the man she loves. If she were real girl, I’d definitely try my best to get her. Maybe… if I can survive her kicking or something.

Now for Tomoya, my rage aside, he’s far too pathetic. He has girlfriend he needs to support, but instead doing that, he leaves her. That’s so cowardice behavior in my eyes. It’s true that Tomoya does drag Tomoyo down in almost everything, but he has shown he can support Tomoyo already. The result of her being chosen as Student Council President is mostly because of Tomoya’s ideas of challenging clubs around and by staying beside her the whole time.

So does leaving someone mean you support that someone? In some realities, it might be true. I also can’t explain each and every possibilities. In this particular Arc, however, it is arguable. If we argue that Tomoya is required to break up with her in order for the latter to preserve the Sakura Trees, then why can’t they do some crazy backstreet? They break up in front of everyone but keep being together behind everyone. This is just one example to solve the problem. That way, nobody gets hurt. Neither Tomoya nor Tomoyo has to endure being separated for eight months. The fact that in Tomoyo After it is shown that Tomoyo leaves the Student Council means that upholding the title means so little for Tomoyo after she manages to preserve the Sakura trees. Or maybe how about Tomoya tries to improve himself? Sure he’s delinquent, but people can try to fix their mistakes. Well his personal shoulder injury does prevent him to get back to sports of which he excels at, but he can improve his attendances in school which he is capable of as shown during his date with Tomoyo. And let’s not stop that, he can also tries to improve his grades to manageable level. But no, damn no, he chooses the easiest way out. Man…

I can’t deny though that that ‘easiest way out’ in the end successfully make this route more dramatic and meaningful. I just say I can’t like how Tomoya approaches the problem.

And did I say Tomoyo After? Crap I just reopened my own deep wound in my heart. Totally heartbroken playing that VN.

#111

I always get a bit iffy when people are quick to blame Tomoya for the problems of this route… I am very much of the opinion that Tomoya did nothing wrong! and I want to give a bit of defense for that.

See, the reason why Tomoya separated with Tomoyo was anchored specifically on the strain that society put on him: “You are a delinquent, and you are limiting Tomoyo’s own potential”. And, wouldn’t you know, he believed it. Problem here was, the only person limiting Tomoyo’s own potential was herself because she, despite knowing the risks and responsibilities, forced time off to get to meet with Tomoya.

Whether or not Tomoya was aware of the real problem is still arguable, but he was sure that breaking up with her would straighten her up. And it did! And you can be sure it was not the easiest way out as it cause him his own mental strain in the long run.

Now, let’s assume for arguments sake, that he straightened up his act and stopped being a delinquent. What do you think would happen? Tomoyo would still shirk her own responsibilities to meet with him, and society would still blame him for bringing her down, and there would still be that chance that Tomoyo would not save those cherry trees.

So no matter what kind of support Tomoya could have given her, unless Tomoyo stopped being dense and society stopped being blind, only then could they be able to maintain a relationship throughout Tomoya’s school life. But hey, it ended on a good note, and just proved that their love was genuine and able to survive those many months away from each other.

#112

Not communicating in your relationship is still something wrong. It makes sense for his character that he wouldn’t, but that doesn’t stop the right choice to have been having a good conversation with Tomoyo.

My conclusion at this point is that Tomoyo, Tomoya, all contributed to the problem, and like a lot of relationships that fall on hard times pointing to “one” person or thing does little to shed light on the problem and ends up being more of a blame game.

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#113

Well I didn’t mean it as he did literally nothing wrong; just that he wasn’t causing the problems with Tomoyo in the way that everyone else in the story seemed to be thinking.

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#114

This is another of those routes where I don’t have a whole lot to say initially. I mean, what can I say? This route feels both familiar and unexpected, even though it’s been so long since I watched the anime.

Tomoyo is a character I cared little for in the anime, and in hindsight I think it’s a crying shame that a lot of the development from the VN was stripped away for the anime. She’s one of the more complex Key characters I’ve seen, taking great care of her own self-image as well as being considerate of others’ feelings. She has admirable goals and is responsible to a fault, which sometimes gets in the way of her own selfish desires. The chemistry between TomoyaKotori and Tomoyo is also among the best I’ve seen in Key novels, developing naturally from formal strangers to casual (if unsteady) friends to young, inexperienced lovers. Maeda took considerable care developing the relationship into something worthwhile, if only to drive in the point that he meant to make with this story.

I mean, what other Key routes do I know of that begin with the main couple breaking up? It’s a novel wrench in the works, and it creates real drama that makes me realize how much I care about Kotori and Tomoyo as a couple. What makes this route even more heartwrenching is the feelings Kotori displays and the actions he(?) takes to bring his life back to the way it was before Tomoyo entered his(?) life. It practically destroys all the development that took place beforehand, save the lingering feelings he(?) harbors for her. Even Sunohara points out how boring life has become since Tomoyo stopped hanging out with them.

The ending is proof of how their relationship went beyond just youthful, inexperienced infatuation with one another. Although Kotori was able to move past his(?) relationship with Tomoyo and find a path of his(?) own, Tomoyo found herself stuck with those lingering feelings despite the technical freedom from his(?) influence. She pressed on as best she could, waiting for a moment when the freedom to accommodate such a relationship would be available to her. By then, they both matured somewhat, and their feelings were rekindled in the cold of winter into a more consummate relationship.

Routes like these are, in my opinion, what define the classic era of Key. There is a focus on the mundane, but dynamic relationship between the main characters, while also portraying a realistic, relatable and naturally-paced dilemma. It may be the largest departure for Maeda from his usual magic realism I’ve seen, and it may be the only one I ever will see. Who knows? Maybe I might be surprised in the next few routes. Up next is Yukine! :slight_smile:

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#115

I disagree; I don’t find Tomoyo perfect at all. She is quite flawed and her flaws make her deplorable in my eyes :stuck_out_tongue: The fact that she’s so pushy whenever she believes in something and fails to see things from others perspectives is something I cannot accept from people.

And while (tomoyo after spoilers) Tomoyo After does definitely look into this negative aspect of hers, they approach it more from the aspect of “you’re wrong” instead of “the way you’re thinking is wrong” thus while putting a bit of perspective in her eyes, doesn’t necessarily solve the problem. Although I haven’t exactly finished TA quite yet so everything I have said just now could be bullshit

#116

I don’t think Tomoyo is a goody two shoes. If she was I don’t think she would have fallen for Tomoya in the first place. If she really was Little Miss Perfect she would have taken one look at Tomoya and dismiss him as a bum.

#117

I don’t think anybody here claimed her to be… The wording used was “mary sue” which, frankly, is much too vague a label to use for any character

#118

On a side note, has anyone here been able to trigger the variants of the events on the 17th (Where you accompany Sunohara to fight Tomoyo) in which Sunohara’s face is disfigured? Most walkthroughs I’ve found say to trigger it, you need to complete After Story, but I’ve done that and haven’t successfully triggered it…

#119

oh yeah I got that! You gotta complete after story and I think you also have to have completed the 64-hit combo?

#120

That’s the odd thing. I’ve also completed the 64 hit combo before. Do you think I have to do it again now that I’ve completed After Story to trigger it?

Edit: Looks like it worked after doing the 64 hit combo again.

#121

It felt like they spent way more time in this route than in the other routes.

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#122

This is weird. I didn’t find myself caring much about Tomoyo in both the anime and the Tomoyo After spin-off, but I ended up quite liking her in the VN. And even weirder, I like her not exactly because she’s awesome (I do like her savagery though), but because of her character flaws. I mean, she’s a character with very high charisma and talent, which makes it easy for her to earn admirers, but at the same time, she cares little about her own public image (I’m sorry @EisenKoubu), has little sense of personal space, and like others have mentioned here, she doesn’t pick up on social cues well.

tl;dr: she’s pretty unaware of her awkwardness, and I ended up liking her because of it.

I like this route, but I don’t think I can talk much about it, since there’s been a fairly extensive discussions about it here. However, there’s this imagery in her route that really worsened the feels for me here. It was the breakup scene. Tomoya and Tomoyo were at the foot of the hill, but after that happened, Tomoyo walked up the hill while Tomoya was left behind… ;_;

There is a gigantic flaw in this route though, and it’s not in the story – it’s Tomoyo’s voice actor. She portrays Tomoyo well for the most part, but at the reunion scene where Tomoyo was supposed to be tearful, she didn’t even try. :expressionless:

The start was really slow though, but Tomoyo’s savagery made up for it. Poor Sunohara becoming the chew toy though.

Rating: 4.5/5

Endnote: They should have made an another arrangement of Kanojo no Honki. It’s too cool, so cool that at times it didn’t really suit the scenes where Tomoyo is just really being cute.

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#123

Alright, I just finished Tomoyo’s route so now time for my thoughts on it.

I don’t really have much to say about Tomoyo’s character that everyone else has not said honestly. A lot of people like to say that she’s perfect and a Mary Sue, and she’s really not. She does have her flaws and one of them is her lack of confidence in both her feminine side and when it comes to her relationship with Tomoya Luigi. We see her lack of confidence with her feminine side during the early scenes where after Sunohara makes assumptions that Tomoyo’s a man and then gets his butt kicked, she takes Luigi to the other building and asks her what would make her seem like a woman. Later on when Luigi and Tomoyo are in relationship and Luigi jokingly says to Tomoyo that they should break up, we see Tomoyo take whatever he said very seriously to the point where she requests Luigi to never make that joke again and this scene reflects her lack of confidence when it comes to relationships. Another flaw that Tomoyo arguably has is that she’s overbearing. If someone refuses to do what is right in her eyes, she will not give up until she finds out the reason why and try to make them do the right thing. If Luigi doesn’t wake up early or goes to school late, she would go to his house and make sure he does wake up early and goes to school on time. She’s the kind of person who would be the bane of one’s existence if they are very easygoing and laid back.

With all I said so far, you might think that I don’t like Tomoyo and well that’s not true. I do like her, not as much as some of the other heroines, but she has her charms. She’s quite the savage and while she might be overbearing, her caring for other people, especially her friends and willingness to make them better people is something I admire. Her backstory was really good and I admire her willingness to put her bad past behind her and start a new life. In a way, it’s very much what would have become of Luigi had something terrible happened to his father, he was able to realize the value of his father, and patch things up with him as a result of said incident. Speaking of Luigi, the romance between Tomoyo and Luigi was well done with some sweet romantic moments and comedic moments as well. Not to mention, both Luigi and Tomoyo have chemistry which I think added to the charm of their relationship. Overall, I can see why some say that Luigi and Tomoyo are a really good matching pair. Lastly, the comedic moments between Tomoyo and Sunohara were hilarious, providing some of the funniest slapstick I’ve seen in the VN so far, and making me feel kinda sorry for poor Sunohara even though he kind of deserved some of that smackdown. :laughing:

Now for the route itself, I really liked this route. It might have started slow, but picked up the pace and I was really invested in seeing what was going to happen next. One of the themes for this route is how society tends to judge you based on your past, but one of the other themes that I picked up on that I didn’t notice was the theme of habits. Tomoyo’s route displays how hard it is to form new habits and break old habits. For example, it took some effort for Tomoyo to make Luigi and Sunohara early birds and then when both Tomoyo and Luigi break up, both Luigi and Sunohara find it hard to go back to the habit of sleeping and waking up late. Sure they eventually did go back to sleeping and getting up late, but it took a week and it showed how hard it was to break a habit that they were so used to. As for the breakup scene, I thought it was done really well and I loved how they used Tomoyo going back up the hill as symbolism to display how Luigi felt regarding his position in society when compared to Tomoyo. In fact, one could say that Tomoyo’s route shows Luigi at his lowest self-esteem, as he berates himself almost anytime when it came to him, Tomoyo and their positions in society. The reconciliation scene was really good, though I will agree with @BlackHayate02 that Tomoyo’s VA could have been more tearful. Other than that though, it had some really good visuals and music, and Ana was a strange, strange, abstract song that I have a funny memory with. Overall, Tomoyo’s route was pretty solid and I’m looking forward to reading Tomoyo After.

Up next is Yukine Miyazawa. :smile:

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#124

Just finished her route. A few questions:

While they were still in the early stages of Tomoyo being in the SC, Tomoya felt guilty that he was holding her back, especially in her quest to save the Sakura trees. After she saved the Cherry Blossoms, what happened to the, “She’ll achieve great things in life if I weren’t dragging her down.”?

Also, was there a way to make their relationship work while Tomoyo was still fighting for the Cherry Blossoms?

#125

Tomoya probably never stoppes feeling that… until tomoyo confronted him in the snow, telling him about her regrets. So maybe after that, he still thought he was pulling her down (you can find out yourself in Tomoyo After!), but he probably thought at that point it was worth it. Because that is what Tomoyo also wants.

I really, very much, honest-to-god believe it could work. How? Simple. By Tomoyo not shirking her responsibilities just to meet Tomoya and instead planning her time well enough such that she does everythinf she needs to do and spends free time when she can.

But of course society yadda yadda nobody thinks what she’s doing is wrong everything is tomoya’s fault yadda yadda… Those lingering social strains pushed Tomoya to end their relationship instead.

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#126

From a POV of storytelling I think the break up was simply more dramatically intense, but also having Tomoya react in that way maybe suggests that they were trying to show his self-esteem issues (depending on the order followed, this being some way before we see his more positive actions bear fruit).

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#127

But wasn’t Tomoyo skipping her duties the bigger factor? Like the time he decided to break up with her was after the talk with the SC member who told him the problems Tomoyo was causing by skipping out on her duties.

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#128

Conversely it could’ve also worked out if Tomoya had been more steadfast and confident in his position. Or if he’d taken the effort to prove the allegations wrong. Or if Tomoyo had simply been less ignorant of the effects of her actions. In the end it comes down to wishing either of the two - or the authority figures involved for that matter - to be someone they’re not.

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#129

Yes but nobody else realized that was the bigger factor. Not Tomoyo, not Tomoya, not even society as a whole.

Well, sure, they could have made the relationship work if that were the case… but I am doubtful that tomoyo would still be able to save the cherry trees if she kept it up, no matter how confident tomoya became…

That much is true, and that’s what makes this story beautiful. It shows the story of two flawed people trying, then failing, then succeeding to make things work out.

Tomoyo being less ignorant would have been nice, but that’s her flaw. It’s a pretty big flaw, but literally nobody else in the story sees that flaw. Heck, I think even half the readers fail to notice this flaw. And I think that’s what ticks me off the most. I don’t hate Tomoyo, I hate society.

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