CLANNAD - Nagisa Furukawa Route & Character Discussion

[therationalpi]

I’m gonna try something a little different. Rather than analyzing the story and characters (I think y’all did a great job with that already), I’m going to really focus on the music and visual portions of this arc.

Music

Nagisa’s theme is notable, if for no other reason than it’s simply called “Nagisa,” unlike other character themes with more cryptic names. The song begins with a very simple melody, slowly expanding with more voices until you have completely filled all the space. Making a simple melody that can stand that well alone is no mean feat, and I love the instrumentation as the song fills in. There’s that otherworldly warbling sound that appears early in the song. And the light chords on the strings building slowly towards the bridge. Finally, when everything hits you have the tympany to really fill out the bass, a woodblock hitting every couple measures, and something akin to chimes to add a high end. Finally it goes back to the piano theme.

Something else I love about the song is how it sends mixed messages throughout. The song is really played at a Moderato tempo, but has the feeling of Adagio because of the bass line hitting on 1 and 3. Similarly, the primary theme is in F-minor, but the bass line invokes the relative major key, helping to lend the song a melancholic feel which is resolved when the secondary theme comes in on the major key.

Excellent song, and they make good use of it in After Story as well. Expanding on it with the Parting at the Bottom of the Hill.

The Days’ Leisure could really be called the route’s secondary theme. Another piano tune, this one far more harmonic than Nagisa. This one actually is Adagio, fitting with its role of laid back and leisurely. The song sticks firmly to its major key, though its slow pace makes it seem more pensive than expected (if you don’t believe me, try singing it to yourself at a higher tempo).

And how can we leave out Ravel’s Ma Mère l’Oye? I think Nishina-san made a perfect choice on this song for Nagisa’s performance, but I can only imagine how jarring it was for the audience when Nagisa closed with her rendition Dango Daikazoku.

Character Design

Nagisa’s design is remarkably plain. Short brown hair with the little clip for decoration, rounded brown eyes. Her only really notable feature is the antennae on her head, which suggest her ditzy personality. One thing I really like about her is that cute serious and determined look that she gets sometimes. It’s very endearing!

CG's

Our first exposure to Nagisa, and the first character we see in the visual novel. The dramatic wind through her hair and the falling sakura petals strongly convey not just a sense of motion, but of a moment captured in time. Everything is in focus and high detail, from the falling petals in the foreground to the leaves on the trees in the background. Nagisa herself, is center of the frame, looking directly at the viewer. I think it's noteworthy that while Nagisa's body is facing left, the fact that she's centered helps to convey the sense that she's stopped (if she was positioned just a little to the right, it would look more like she had space to move into in the frame).

The official start of Tomoya and Nagisa’s relationship. Nagisa’s positioning has her largely being framed by Tomoya. The ruddy light coming through the trees helps to communicate the the time, and you can even see the reflection of the orange sky in the windows behind them. Though I will say that this image has one of my pet peeves about Clannad’s CG’s…tilted orientation as opposed to shifted perspective! But that’s a rant for another time. This is hardly the worst offender in the set.

Okay, this is the worst offender in the set. The damned picure is turned at like 45º…Anyway. Here we have “Sad Nagisa in the Rain.” Nagisa’s hair is slightly darkened, her face and the ball have deoplets on them, and the mist on her head helps to convey that she’s not just wet, but actively getting poured on. I love the body language here. Tight in pose, arms wrapped around the ball like she’s giving it a hug. Nagisa really looks pathetic here, which I’m pretty sure is the desired response. There’s also the muddy ground there, which is directly referenced in the scene.

If I can make one complaint (other than the angle) is that Nagisa’s hair and clothes don’t hang like they’re wet. Her antenna are slightly droopy, but nowhere near what you would expect. Compare to (spoiler other routes) Kyou Route, which does it better.

The first kiss. I love how close Tomoya and Nagisa are here, shoulder the shoulder, it really feels like a natural first kiss, unlike the face-to-face kisses you usually see. Sanae’s position in the frame makes it feel like a private moment, despite being outside with the children in the background. I really like the texture on the clothing, especially Nagisa’s dress and the flannel shirt. Also, dat Sanae booty in dem mom jeans.

Nagisa on stage. The use of light in this shot is really striking. Nagisa is starkly lit from the front, giving her lots of defined shadows, and something of a glow. We also have this costume which is reminiscent of the school uniforms from Kanon (probably intentional?) Even beyond the circumstantial reasons, I like how Nagisa is facing towards the bright part of the frame, and just how much negative space there is in this image. It really helps to convey that she is alone up there. Worth noting is that Nagisa is just slightly left of center in the frame, helping to draw the eye towards the space on the right. I also can’t help but wonder if that conspicuously positioned door is supposed to signify a point of escape, or if it’s just incidental to its primary purpose of filling an otherwise empty void in the shot.

The other shot from that scene. Here we have Tomoya’s view of the scene above. Nagisa is there on stage, all lights pointing at her. Her form is immediately recognizable and is notably smaller than all of the people watching her. It’s noteworthy that we have this angle, as it’s one of the only non-character focused CG’s in the entire VN, and the scene could have still been conveyed with the earlier angle focused on Nagisa. I think this is supposed to reinforce how far away Tomoya is, and the helplessness he feels given the circumstances.

Our closing shot of the couple. Again, it’s turned at a bit of an angle, but at least this one feels artistic. With the pair turned upwards and off-center in frame, there’s a distinct sense of motion into the negative space on the right. That combination hearkens back to the first meeting on the hill, but now with the couple moving up and towards a brighter future. And where the first CG seemed to convey a single moment in stark detail, this final shot seems to suggest an emotion that blurs time. I think the grainy texture, the pastel colors, and the overexposed background all lend themselves to this sense.

[HeliosAlpha]

With the pair turned upwards and off-center in frame, there’s a distinct sense of motion into the negative space on the right. That combination hearkens back to the first meeting on the hill, but now with the couple moving up and towards a brighter future.

I think this picture of them walking up the hill is really cool. I’ve forgotten the details of why they’re walking up the hill in their uniforms after Tomoya has graduated, but that doesn’t really matter. I like having this be the final shot of the route because it’s them continuing to go up the hill. The hill is an allegory for the journey through life. School might be over for Tomoya, but life goes on; you just gotta keep walking.

[Naoki_Saten]

Many people call Nagisa weak and disagree with her being the main heroine. The feeling I’m getting from it all isn’t that it’s not an alleged weakness of character they have a problem with. It’s the fact that Nagisa could “win” in a competition against all the other girls and be chosen by Tomoya. That impression is even stronger in the anime, because that’s where Clannad is portrayed as a harem-like story where the hero goes around saving girls and finally falls for one of them (and I’m assuming, with nothing to prove it, that most complaints are coming from anime-only viewers). I do agree that if you view it from this perspective, it looks strange for a “weak” competitor like Nagisa to “win”. After all, Nagisa, like Ryou, is a rather boring girlfriend, but has a huge potential as a wife. Sure, the romance in Nagisa’s route isn’t among the most exciting in Clannad, but it was never supposed to be. Just like how Clannad was never supposed to be just a high school love story. It’s not about being the “best girl”. As many of us have agreed on in this topic, in terms of a long-term relationship, Nagisa is the most fitting partner for Tomoya. There is no doubt for me. Throughout all of Clannad, everything about Nagisa is exactly what Tomoya needs. Her love, her strength, her weakness, her family, everything. She is his savior just like he is hers.

Did nobody find it strange or have we talked about it previously somewhere? It’s only in the latter half of Nagisa’s route that the Opening video of Clannad is played - right when Nagisa reveals that she, too, knows the tale of the girl who’s all alone in the illusionary world. It’s like the game is saying “You’ve seen nothing yet! The actual story has only just begun! (Also, pay attention to the illusionary world sequences!)”

There is something I don’t understand though. It’s the second-last choice where you can choose to call Akio a failure of a father. How is it possible to blame Akio for anything? What exactly did he supposedly do wrong, from Tomoya’s perspective? I understand that this option exists in order to drive the point home that both Tomoya and Nagisa’s parents have to call out to Nagisa in order to drive away her feelings of guilt, because on their own, they would fail at doing so. But the line itself kinda doesn’t make sense to me.

[Karifean]

This screenshot points out one of my favorite things about this route in general.

This doesn’t just concern the romance between Tomoya and Nagisa. This concerns all the little conflicts we’ve observed this entire route. All of it has been about a small group of people that deal with their difficulties with doing things they’d love to do and would be the simplest thing in the world for anyone else to do; Sunohara with playing soccer, Tomoya with playing basketball, and of course Nagisa with participating in the drama club. Even the choir club subplot with Nishina and Sugisaka is the same.

Right here, Tomoya reaches a conclusion. A conclusion that the handicaps each of them face are not absolute. That there is meaning in continuing to struggle. That, as long as he has the support of Nagisa, he can keep going. It really brings a smile to my face too, seeing the group succeed against the odds with their idealistic ‘never give up’ approach. Maybe it’s cheesy, I still like it regardless.

And then To The Same Heights starts playing with absolutely impeccable timing. Such a good track.

Also, this is a bit of a non sequitur, but since I brought it up; the choir club subplot. In this conflict there’s one scene that sticks out to me in particular, the scene where Sunohara learns of the threatening letter, immediately blames the choir club and Nagisa vehemently defends them. To me, this shows one of the downfalls of Nagisa’s kind of naive idealism, which is that she deliberately blinds herself to reasons why people might do something like this. She has such a simple view of ‘good’ and ‘bad’ people in that moment that her accepting that the choir club “would do such a horrible thing” instantly puts them in the ‘bad’ people spectrum in her mind, which is why she denies it so firmly, even proclaiming herself as the true culprit. Of course Sunohara doesn’t help at all, being more or less the other extreme and instantly having no further concern to share for the ‘evil’ choir club. But still, in that scene and only for a moment I had sympathy for everyone who dislikes Nagisa for her idealistic self-blaming nature. I don’t dislike her myself because the route also gives many, many examples of the good that kind of approach can bring. But this is an obvious pitfall for this kind of thinking, and one I take care to avoid being a pretty idealistic fellow myself. And I like that the route doesn’t shy away from showing this.

[Pepe]

Well I kind of didn’t reserve enough time for this but… I still had one more part lined up to discuss about Nagisa’s route. Too bad I couldn’t post it before the podcast but hey, better late then never!

Nagisa Route Reflections Part x: The Illusionary World

One thing that is pretty apparent from Nagisa’s route is the extension of the Illusionary World segments that we’ve been seeing since the start of the game. It’s very very hard to talk about these segments while still feigning ignorance about the true ending of CLANNAD. As such, I think I will avoid stating out what the illusionary world segments mean and what it is supposed to represent, and save that talk for the After Story discussion.

But one thing very very interesting that is never answered: Why does Nagisa even know about this story? We know that Tomoya sees these scenes in his dreams (as is implied by the scenes playing once the days end), but where does Nagisa see them? Tomoya tried so hard to figure this thing out, and came out empty-handed. Could it have been one of Nagisa’s dreams, just like Tomoya? This, more than anything, implies Nagisa having a connection to Tomoya stronger than that of a loving relationship.

One also very interesting thing to point out is that, while Tomoya can only see things from the perspective of the junk doll, Nagisa apparently sees things from the perspective of the girl. In fact, her entire play is about the struggle of the girl and her loneliness in this empty world, leading her to build that junk doll. And you know what? The girl actually does seem satisfied with all that. She seems satisfied simply having one partner to spend the rest of her days with in this empty world.

It’s a very good contrast of perception; the junk doll wants to bring the girl to a happier place because he cares so much for her, and he believes that a happier place lies beyond the boundaries of this world. The girl, however, seems to be satisfied just living out her life together with this doll, as it has saved her from her own loneliness, as is implied in Nagisa’s perception. In a nutshell, I believe that, independently, these Illusionary World segments are giving us the message that when we struggle to please those who we care about, we sometimes lose sight of that which is truly important: that those who we care about want nothing more than our company.

Again, this says so much more about After Story, so I’ll leave this topic at that, and I hope you’ve all enjoyed reading my spew of thoughts on this amazing route. I rated it a 4 out of 5 because of some issues I had, but on the long-term, this route sets us up for the true story of the game. Yes, the opening does mean that we have finally started CLANNAD, and we are in for a wonderful ride.

[Arete]

But one thing very very interesting that is never answered: Why does Nagisa even know about this story? We know that Tomoya sees these scenes in his dreams (as is implied by the scenes playing once the days end), but where does Nagisa see them? Tomoya tried so hard to figure this thing out, and came out empty-handed. Could it have been one of Nagisa’s dreams, just like Tomoya? This, more than anything, implies Nagisa having a connection to Tomoya stronger than that of a loving relationship.

Spoilers for just about everything, including the final episode of side stories:

I think that Nagisa saw the story whenever Akio brought her to the clearing. I think most people here accept that Akio bringing Nagisa to the place caused her to gain some sort of link with the town. I believe that when she was there, before she woke up, she saw the story from the girl’s perspective. The illusionary world already seems to be fairly disconnected chronologically from the real world as evidenced by the girl sending the junk doll/Tomoya back at the end of After Story’s first end. So my theory from here on out is a loosely cobbled together mess of things of read form other posters on the After Story board as well as some ideas of my own. To go as chronologically as possible this is what I think happened:
Nagisa got sick with a severe but natural illness. The flu or something. She was about to die when Akio took her to the place. The spirit of the town, who is also the girl from the illusionary world shows Nagisa the story and forms a link with her, saving her life. As others already posted elsewhere this is likely why she gets sick around winter; because the town itself is weakened. Anyway, fast-forward to the start of the game. The spirit of the town forms a link with Tomoya to send him to mend Nagisa’s issues (her self consciousness, fear of unknown, etc). This is evidenced by the fact that we see the first part of the illusionary world (well technically its at the end, but the first one we see) immediately before Tomoya meets her. Tomoya has the first dream, and then the next morning he meets Nagisa. Fast forward again through Nagisa’s route and After Story, with some multiple-timeline shenanigans as outlined in Kotomi’s route, and we get to Ushio’s birth. The girl in the illusionary world calls the junk doll “dad” so we can assume Ushio is this girl. The stress of giving birth to Ushio plus her sickness is too strong for even the spirit of the town to keep Nagisa alive so she dies. After Tomoya gathers enough orbs of light (apparently he is connected to the versions of himself in all the other timelines) he can save Nagisa after being sent back by Ushio.

As for the reason the spirit of the town decided to become Ushio, I think this is because of her wish to see other places and meet people that we see in the last episode of side stories. This is the only reason I can come up with for why Ushio is the spirit of the town.

This might be better off on the After Story page, but it is about Nagisa’s character/past so it should work here.

[EisenKoubu]

I decided to write down notes for this one, since this is perhaps the most important character route of CLANNAD. Also, there were quite a few thoughts I wanted to get off my chest, so be prepared.

Let me start off by saying that I’m usually not a big fan of the main/canon heroines in any given visual novel. It’s not that they’re bad, but more because they don’t interest me as much as some of the other available girls. They’re usually tailored to be more rounded and generally likable than the majority of the other girls, who are more catered to specific tastes (tsunderes, yanderes, lolis, etc). There are special exceptions to this (such as my personal case with Ayu in Kanon or perhaps even Misuzu in AIR), but CLANNAD is not one of them.

When I first watched the anime, I was drawn to Nagisa’s quiet, reserved demeanor. The opening episode did a fair job of introducing her character in an exaggerated, romantic way. But I only remember being drawn to her through that, and not much else. Eventually Fuko won my love for how cute and quirky she was, but Nagisa is the focus here, and while I could spend all day talking about the superiority of her predecessors, I’m choosing not to do that for the sake of focus and (hopefully) positivity.

So let me start with Nagisa’s good parts. Maeda certainly put some work into making her a legitimate character, with clear goals, labels and personality. Her passiveness and lawful good tendencies remind me of myself sometimes, particularly after I finished high school and started learning my way around social media. Her relationship with her parents does feel genuine, and although its never properly explained why, I can only assume her personality has a lot to do with them.

Despite these, Nagisa is still a divisive character for me. Many of her character strengths, more often than not, double as weaknesses the more I look at them. She has clear goals, sure, but her passive nature makes it difficult for her to show resolve in achieving those goals. I can’t recall when anything significant she did was the result of her own decisions. She’s entirely dependent on what others tell her to do, and that doesn’t really make for a strong character. What doesn’t help things is her false modesty about herself, which leads me to think she’s nothing other than what she tells herself she is. I hated it when Sayuri did it in Kanon, and I hate it here. It’s not appealing, and only serves to damage her character rather than help it. Also, I wouldn’t have a problem with her lawful-good tendencies if there was a reason as to why she acts that way. Unfortunately, her route gives us almost nothing to go by.

What her route does give us are two things:

1. some nice backstory for Akio and Sanae that ties into Nagisa’s love for theatre, and

2. Some clues toward the origin of the light orbs and the purpose of the Illusionary World in CLANNAD’s narrative.

Both are certainly important for the narrative, but there doesn’t seem to be any purpose to them in terms of developing Nagisa’s character. She’s pretty much static throughout the entire ride, even if she and TomoyaDango grow closer in their relationship. Their chemistry is good, but I never got the feeling they were really meant for each other. It reminds me a lot of his relationship with Ryou in Kyou’s route, particularly the fact that they had pretty much nothing in common and were forced into the relationship because Kyou wanted her sister to be happy. Throughout the route, however, it shows how the ones that were truly meant for each other were Dango and Kyou, even though it wasn’t out of the question for Ryou to be with him. After seeing that, I realize now that Nagisa is one of the least romantically-compatible with Dango in the entire story, and yet they’re together. Perhaps it means there’s an underlying message in Nagisa’s route, that there’s no such thing as two people being meant for only each other. There’s always another possibility.

(Introspection with After Story spoilers) Still, it leads me to question that while possibilities exist for Dango everywhere he goes, and he’s free to choose whatever end he aims for, he’s still collecting lights for the purpose of satisfying the wish Akio made to preserve Nagisa’s life. So it appears to me that Nagisa is more precious to him than any other girl, perhaps because he canonically chose her first and developed a bond towards his daughter. There’s a lot at stake for Dango, but again, there’s nothing stopping him from choosing a different path and finding a different happiness.

I’m probably getting too carried away with this, and I’m sure reading After Story will provide further clarification on some of my issues here. At least, I hope so. If not, at least I can be assured knowing that the rest of this story is about Dango’s personal development and no one else, so I can’t wait to see how things unfold for him…

[Yerian]

Despite these, Nagisa is still a divisive character for me. Many of her character strengths, more often than not, double as weaknesses the more I look at them. She has clear goals, sure, but her passive nature makes it difficult for her to show resolve in achieving those goals. I can’t recall when anything significant she did was the result of her own decisions. She’s entirely dependent on what others tell her to do, and that doesn’t really make for a strong character. What doesn’t help things is her false modesty about herself, which leads me to think she’s nothing other than what she tells herself she is. I hated it when Sayuri did it in Kanon, and I hate it here. It’s not appealing, and only serves to damage her character rather than help it.

I feel like… arent those just things that are part of her as a person, not so much as a written character? Its fine if you don’t like those aspects about her, as some of them are pretty big flaws, but you talk about them as if they make her a bad character, when to me they just seem like legitimate flaws.

After seeing that, I realize now that Nagisa is one of the least romantically-compatible with Dango in the entire story, and yet they’re together.

I see people talk about romance like this all the time, and I’ve gotta say, it really just irks me. I dont really mean this in a rude way, but really, why should it be an outsider’s place to say if two people are “meant for each other” or not? This goes for real romance and fictional romance. Like, thats just not how love works.

As for the rest of your comments, I think I’ll let you go read After Story first, because I think you might be misunderstanding/misremembering a few things that a reread may or may not clear up (^^)b

[Pepe]

I feel like a lot of your issues are going to be resolved in after story but… I’ll try to defend her as much as I can so far

She has clear goals, sure, but her passive nature makes it difficult for her to show resolve in achieving those goals. I can’t recall when anything significant she did was the result of her own decisions. She’s entirely dependent on what others tell her to do, and that doesn’t really make for a strong character.

No, yeah, that’s true; at the beginning of the story she is not, by any means, a strong character. Even as the story progresses, her strength comes from one main person: Tomoya. The reason why she becomes strong enough to do what she wants to do is exactly because Tomoya is there. Which is why I think that fits in to their romantic chemistry because:

Nagisa, likewise, needs Tomoya and his ability to say things as they are and push her to actually do something with the remainder of her school life. She needs this motivation because she herself does not have any confidence in her own abilities (probably due to her own frail constitution).

I’m hoping you’ll see more of the effects of Tomoya pushing her around in after story though~ I thought they were pretty clear

What doesn’t help things is her false modesty about herself

Wait, what false modesty? She thinks she sucks, and she actually, well, kinda sucks. It’s different from Sayuri who is just being polite but is actually amazing. Nagisa is a loser and that’s kind of the point of her character and her story (sorry, nagisa).

Their chemistry is good, but I never got the feeling they were really meant for each other.

You should read my post to figure out why I think they are chemistry is amazing and why they really are meant for each other After having experience with my own relationship (and helping other people out with their relationships), I’ve come to the conclusion that good chemistry is not simply being attracted to each othe from the get go; it’s being able to triumph and help each others’ flaws. As you can see from the route, their relationship grows from a very simple “I’m interested in this person” to a deep and meaningful “I need this person in my life”. And I think that’s what makes their chemistry so important compared to all the other romantic interests that Tomo-err, Dango has.

So, sure, even if Dango has way more initial attraction to other characters, do you honestly believe that they can help triumph his flaws? And that he can triumph their flaws? I’ve thought long and hard about each and every other female character in the story and I honestly think that no; only nagisa will be able to help dango with his issues, and only dango will be able to help nagisa with his issues.

(also, as much as I absolutely love the nicknames you’ve given him, I’m hoping you remain with “Tomoya Okazaki” for the rest of after story because, at that point, he deserves to be his own character )

[Mogaoscar]

She has clear goals, sure, but her passive nature makes it difficult for her to show resolve in achieving those goals. I can’t recall when anything significant she did was the result of her own decisions. She’s entirely dependent on what others tell her to do, and that doesn’t really make for a strong character.

You can’t make characters to be perfect. The fact that she is shy isn’t a flaw, nor a strenght. It’s just a feature of her personality. What is really a flaw is her lack of resolve, like you said, but if you erase that characteristic from her, she is left like a flawless character that wouldn’t fit the CLANNAD Scenario.

(Mild After Story spoilers) Their relationship and story is about, like @Pepe said, helping each other out and supporting each other through whatever problems life throws at them. in the school arc, Nagisa is the one who needs the most help and support, but this situation is reverted most of the times in the cohabitation arc.

Their chemistry is good, but I never got the feeling they were really meant for each other.

One can’t decide who to fall in love with. Even then, Dango lacked a proper family and its affection, and that’s something Nagisa and her family gave her. She might lack self determination as you said, but that’s only when talking about her goals. When Tomoya is feeling a bit down, she’s always there to cheer him up. That’s what Tomoya is looking for, someone who plainly loves him. (After Story Spoilers) Well, his father loved him after all, it’s just that Tomoya didn’t notice.

[DangoDaikazoku]

Of all the heroines in Clannad, Nagisa is the most human and relatable. Her ambition to reform the Drama Club in order to form a lasting memory and overcome her insecurities is compelling from the start. As the lone artifact in an ever-evolving environment, Nagisa is worried her new third-year peers will be unwilling to bond with her. A simple gesture not unlike Tomoya shatters those concerns. His decision to lift her spirits means little to him, but for Nagisa, it’s an answer to prayer. From then on, she resolves to become a strong and confident individual.

However, her chemistry with Tomoya is what makes her story so memorable. Tomoya’s blunt disposition callouses her heart. She learns to accept others’ disapproval and to persevere anyway. She learns to assert herself around others, while maintaining her kindhearted nature inherited from her mother. In turn, Tomoya benefits from Nagisa’s sensitivity and her understanding nature. He learns to forget the pretenses he once held about his present circumstances and move forward with his life. Both characters reveal hidden truths about each other and organically develop as characters because of their qualities as people, and Maeda executes every up and down of their relationship expertly.

[Sonic112003]

For the K.E.Y.

Of all the routes in CLANNAD, Nagisa’s route stands out the most. The opening scene where Tomoya meets Nagisa for the first time while walking the uphill path to school amidst the falling sakura petals is filled with such beauty that so many readers immediately fell in love with Nagisa’s character. Tomoya had told her there are fun as well as happy things in life despite the fact that she loved going to school and couldn’t be there at times due to health problems. She is a kind and sweet-hearted character that can change the reader’s perspective on how she viewed families always getting along together though some may not be as fortunate as others. Tomoya and his father have had a bad relationship because of family problems that were complicated from his point of view. Nagisa was there to help Tomoya change his view of the town, the people, and how the flow of time passes by as change can be a hard obstacle to overcome. She was a great and moral support for Tomoya to take on life and move forward. Though she had to give up on the drama club, Tomoya would always be there for her and declaring his love to Nagisa was the most beautiful highlight.

The readers can relate to their characters because change can be very hard and difficult to overcome. But despite all that, change is not necessarily a bad thing that we as the readers try our best to find ways to be happy and pursue many fun things in life that matters the most and making the best out of it with the support of family and friends. This is what many readers can find most endearing in Nagisa’s route as she was the pillar in Tomoya’s life that made him change his viewpoint of how families can come together and enjoy one’s company as he comes to love the town and the people as she has too.

[machelmore]

I was gonna litter this post with images and whatnot to demonstrate exactly what and when I’m talking about, but I really have to write this one raw for the sake of my own clarity.

I hate Nagisa. I don’t hate her in the way I “hate” Kud - where I just find her kind of annoying, the least likeable of all the characters, and just like to rip on her - I actually hate Nagisa. Well, to be honest the act of hating someone is too much of a pain in the ass for me to bother with, but I definitely can’t stand Nagisa.

Takafumi highlighted a lot of the reason early in this topic:

She is weak, quiet, lacking in appeal, and in the anime she is pushy and nosy. I honestly can’t see anything good in her.

but it doesn’t cover everything for me. (By the way, this is not intended as refutation of Takafumi, more so as agreement and expansion of what he’s said.)

The number one problem: she’s unbelievably pushy, nosy, and to be frank, arrogant. The anime is by no means the only medium where she’s pushy and nosy.
BASKETBALL.
I can’t blame her for suggesting it. Sure, she probably should have been able to figure out that something was up given how Tomoya has absolutely nothing to do with basketball after one accident, but I have to give her a pass on that. The thing is, Tomoya gave her a firm “no” when she suggested it, but she went through with it against his will anyway. She can no longer claim ignorance. But she’s so arrogant, so sure of herself, so absolutely certain that she knows what’s better for him than he does, that she does her absolute best to force him into it using guilt. She stands there in the rain, deliberately not seeking shelter, making damn sure Tomoya would feel awful for not making it in time for their entirely one-sided promise. And for what? Because she simply can’t accept his own judgement of his own life. Unbelievable.
And after that utter clusterfuck where she finally realises how badly she messed up, you’d think she wouldn’t make the same mistake again, right?
Well you’d be wrong, because that’s exactly what she does when she invites Naoyuki (Tomoya’s dad) to the drama performance entirely behind Tomoya’s back. What does she hope to accomplish anyway? Is she trying to hurt Tomoya?
She does it again and again throughout her route and After Story. Sometimes it’s just small things, other times it makes a world of difference. Just one more I wanted to mention from After Story: When Tomoya punches the wall. For the love of god, just let him let it out. Why do you want him to bottle up his emotions? What’s so wrong about him lashing out for a second? Yeah, it’ll hurt his hand. Boo-hoo. MUCH better than forcing him to bottle up his emotions.
And I know what some people are gonna say:
“Yeah, but she had good intentions” or “but she was right some of those times”.
Doesn’t matter. Does. Not. Fucking. Matter. If you have good intentions, why are you forcing him to do things he doesn’t want to do? Why aren’t you respecting his decisions?
It’s like those characters in plenty of other stories who get in the fucking way of the person because they’re worried about them. You see how that makes no fucking sense, right? If you’re so worried about them, why are you going out of your way, against their wishes, to make their life harder!? HOW DOES ANYONE SEE THIS AS A GOOD CHARACTER TRAIT!?
Nagisa is the kind of person who just can’t let something drop, and I hate those people.

Bit of a side story.

This somewhat has special significance to me, because some people actually see respecting someone’s space as not caring about them. You see, I’m the kind of person where if my friend is acting gloomy, I make sure to tell them that I’m there for them if they need anything, once, and that’s it. Any more than that, and I’m just bothering them, surely. The way other people, even my own friends, just can’t respect each other’s space never ceases to baffle me. I even remember my mother - who’s much the same way I am on this issue - telling me a story about how she lost one of her best friends because of this. This friend of hers was a real princess, just wanted to be doted on all the time in her own little safe space and all that. One day this “friend” messaged my mother saying “I don’t need people in my life who don’t care about me” and cut all contact… WHAT!? So because someone wasn’t bothering you mercilessly during your difficult times and respecting your personal space, they don’t care about you???
I have a special hatred in my heart for princesses who have absolutely no respect for other people’s space - just like Nagisa. Not only do they bother the individual, they set a bad precedence that makes people who actually give enough of a fuck about other people to respect their privacy and their personal space seem uncaring.

Beyond that, there’s her utter irrationality. For the love of god, I don’t even BELIEVE in objective rationality, but (After Story) the in-home birth? Seriously?? You DO know you’re not exactly the healthiest person alive, right? No childbirth is risk-free, even for completely healthy people in a good hospital, what possesses you to make the problem even worse? Exponentially so.

I also want to complain about her ceding Koumura as a club adviser to the other club. If I recall correctly, she doesn’t know about Sunohara’s circumstances at this point, but she obviously knows her own circumstances, and she knows about Tomoya’s history too. Putting herself aside, since that really does only affect her, doing that with Tomoya sitting right next to her may as well have just been a big “fuck you” to him. She may as well have just stood up and kicked him in the balls. It would’ve been a lot faster and probably less painful.

Other than that she’s just generally plain and unappealing. To quote Takafumi again:

I honestly can’t see anything good in her.

[Pepe]

Because she simply can’t accept his own judgement of his own life. Unbelievable.

I’ve heard this sort of argument used before, in a series that I hold quite dearly (Your Lie in April). Basically, (I won’t spoiler tag this because this happens within the first three episodes), one critic whose opinion I valued criticized the series because he “couldn’t subscribe to the worldview” of the series, where female protag pushes male protag against his own wishes to quit playing piano by entering him in a music competition.

I can’t quite accept that line of reasoning, for reasons that I seem to have a very hard time putting into words. But I will try my best.

If you have good intentions, why are you forcing him to do things he doesn’t want to do? Why aren’t you respecting his decisions?

This is just my opinion, mmkay. But, frankly? Tomoya’s decisions are shit. He’s not working towards fixing himself, and if left unchecked, I honestly believe he would spiral into a life of continuous self-deprecation. I definitely cannot and will not subscribe to the “only you know what is best for yourself” mindset because, well, at his age I had an entirely wrong idea about what was “best for myself”.

However, the issue comes with the fact that I am able to make this opinion as a reader of the VN; I can make this as someone who has been inside Tomoya’s head. This isn’t something that Nagisa is even capable of doing. So, with the limited knowledge she has, is it justifiable for her to push Tomoya in that direction, even if I agree with her methods? Does it indeed make her selfish to push her own mindset onto Tomoya even if the story proved that it was what made him grow? Does it justify us, in our daily lives, to do that to other people who may or may not need our help?

And this opens up a whole big can of worms that I can’t even begin to elaborate on. I can at least agree in that your hate is justified, despite it being something that I cannot agree with. Guess we may have to “agree to disagree” on this one.

[Ganesh_Swami]

I’m neutral on Nagisa, I don’t like her but still don’t hate her. Other people said that she’s pushy and yeah i believe that even though she wants to do good her approach often comes aggressive, with constant spam of you should do this tomoya-san, it’s good for you. But that’s not much of a problem cause i agree with this statement.

Tomoya’s decisions are shit.

The main thing wrong about Nagisa route is that she gets overshadowed by Akio, she can’t leave an impression on me if such a hulk hogan like performance is going on. In After Story They start living together and the relationship they have is great but that’s about it Other characters still are still better than her. Her somewhat appreciated moments are ruined by the idiocy Homebirth scene so she again falls into neutral.At the end the only thing she has going for her is the relationship between her and tomoya which makes me a bit attached to her, but it feels cheap cause i don’t really care about the character itself but only the relationship which is why her death scene is so dry for me.
In short she doesn’t have big goddamm awesome moment or a strong/pleasant personality that in itself alone can make me like her unlike Yukine or any other character. Nagisa is an okay character.

[StarfishBender]

So I never posted about the dango loving one before…

Hmm, well for my part Nagisa gets a free pass because of her illness After Story spoiler and because no-one of that age should have a potentially fatal illness (yes, exacerbated by the home birth decision, but still). I’ve known a few young people with terminal conditions so this doubtless affects my judgement (as well as liking of the Narcissu stories) . It’s shameless manipulation by the writers of the reader of course, and yes we can say that her character is principally there as a foil for Tomoya’s development ( so then which one isn’t?) but hey, I don’t mind falling for it…

I’m sure it must be very disconcerting and unsettling to be a “repeater” too.

While she may well have irritating flaws / traits which are not to do with her illness, I admire the way she persists with her Drama Club dream despite apparently being monumentally inapt for it. The scene with Akio and Nagisa at the School Festival is really powerful, even though Akio is belligerently critical it’s the kick up the arse she needs and that she overcomes her stage fright helped me to like her ( not sure about the offscreen Dango Daikazoku rendition though - what was she thinking!).

So while Nagisa is an unorthodox choice for “heroine” ( I hate that term BTW, but can’t think of a better one…) and a long way from being my “best girl” with her traits I still find Nagisa ultimately very likeable and a person I would be empathically drawn to as a friend at least.

For me, Clannad is about Tomoya and Nagisa, as we see TA is a very different “what if” story that some will prefer; but for Clannad JM and the others put Nagisa at the core of the story and I love it for that.

Now skewer me a dango, I’ll be back in time for tea.

[ThePlasticSpork]

If it’s selfish to want the very best for a dear friend, and later someone you dearly love, then I’d say that’s a pretty justified form of selfishness. Just as Tomoya pushes her towards solving her problems, she too pushes him towards solving his.

It is precisely because she has so much respect for Tomoya that she feels compelled to prevent him from destroying himself. In the same way that you might not wish to allow a close friend to spiral into despair, even if that means going against their own wishes. I’m inclined to agree with the idea that people often do not know what is best for themselves, and whether that justifies trying to correct it even if they’re not all for it is something that I suppose depends on the viewer.

If I’m being frank, a strong relationship shouldn’t consist of letting the other half do whatever they want out of “respecting their decisions”. There’s some decisions that should be respected, and some that absolutely should not. I would argue that many of the decisions Tomoya makes fall into the latter category, and it’s those decisions that Nagisa attempts to remedy. I honestly have a lot of personal experience with a similar situation, and I cannot say with absolute certainty that I would have ever recovered had I been left to my own devices.

I especially strongly disagree with a lot of assessments about the basketball scene. For one, she’s not standing in the rain as a deliberate attempt to guilt trip him, and didn’t want to basically “stand him up” on a meeting that she herself proposed. The most you could really fault her for is being kind of lacking in common sense for standing in the rain and for pushing the meeting in the first place. But considering that it would be wildly unreasonable to expect her to assume disability rather than something much more benign in regards to Tomoya not playing basketball anymore, I don’t really have any problems with that. Tomoya is justifiably angry about her choosing to stand in the rain, but then that suddenly seems like another case of reprimanding an important person for making a shitty decision.

I think characterizing Nagisa as weak while also characterizing her as pushy is kind of an interesting thought process. Most of the other heroines don’t express the strength of character needed to push Tomoya into doing the shit he should be doing. Nagisa goes to pretty hefty lengths to ensure that Tomoya can move forward in his life, and honestly the ultimate justification might just be that Tomoya himself not only tolerates it, but also reciprocates her feelings of love. If we’re going to talk about respecting Tomoya’s decisions, well…it was ultimately up to him to stick with Nagisa through all of her pushiness.

[Takafumi]

If I’m being frank, a strong relationship shouldn’t consist of letting the other half do whatever they want out of “respecting their decisions”.

My big problem here is that Nagisa was being pushy before there was any relationship. They hardly knew each other, barely enough to be acquaintances, and Nagisa was trying to change Tomoya’s entire life without knowing anything about him.

To contrast with Sunohara, Sunohara occasionally pushes Tomoya towards a direction, or hints that he should do something (sometimes even going so far as to do it himself) but he never does so in a disrespectful fashion.

I think characterizing Nagisa as weak while also characterizing her as pushy is kind of an interesting thought process

Personally I said both because of the differences between the VN and the Anime, and it’s one of the many reasons why I dislike the adaptation. In the VN she is weak because she (at the start) can’t do anything for herself by herself. In the anime this is still true to a degree, but she will also butt into every single conflict imaginable even though she’s too shy to walk up a hill alone. She’s shoehorned in so poorly, and it completely messes up her development for me.

[machelmore]

Again, I completely agree with Takafumi here, but I also have some other thoughts on the matter.

If I’m being frank, a strong relationship shouldn’t consist of letting the other half do whatever they want out of “respecting their decisions”.

A relationship consists even less of forcing the other half into doing what you want explicitly against their consent. Not to even mention what Takafumi said about them barely knowing each other, if I may bring up the basketball scene again.

For one, she’s not standing in the rain as a deliberate attempt to guilt trip him, and didn’t want to basically “stand him up” on a meeting that she herself proposed.

It’s not like she had to stand in the middle of the rain to avoid standing him up. Any nearby shelter would suffice just fine. And there’s no way that didn’t occur to her, so her choosing to stand in the rain is a conscious decision on her behalf. And actually, even outright standing him up would have been better than the shit she pulled.

But considering that it would be wildly unreasonable to expect her to assume disability rather than something much more benign in regards to Tomoya not playing basketball anymore, I don’t really have any problems with that.

She doesn’t need to. He has his reasons, that’s all she needs to guess. Physical, emotional, mental, fucking financial, whatever it could possibly be. Given his utter opposition to the idea and the fact that he stood her up (though he didn’t really, considering that he told her explicitly that he wouldn’t be there), it should be blindingly obvious that playing basketball would only be a painful experience to him. And even if that wasn’t true, or it didn’t occur to her, it’s still not up to her to force him into doing something he doesn’t want to do.

It literally would have been better if she had dragged him there by force. At least he wouldn’t have to blame himself for it. But no, she obviously doesn’t have the physical strength to do that, so she uses guilt into forcing him into it. I won’t accept the argument that she wouldn’t know how he would feel after seeing her drenched in the rain, an infant would know that.

It’s as much the way she does things as what she does that I find unforgivable. She can strongly encourage or discourage certain behaviours as much as she wants, but as soon as she tries to force him into doing something, I can no longer respect it.

And to be frank, Nagisa also makes shit decisions. Constantly. Part of what I like about Clannad is how these two people who can’t function as members of society are able to do so once they’ve come together. That street runs both ways. You can’t act like Nagisa is just some benevolent angel to Tomoya and gets nothing in return. But yes, saying that what she does is justified since Tomoya’s decisions are shit (which it’s not) doesn’t work anyway, because her decisions are also shit. And the funny thing is, Tomoya actually does it right. He encourages her without ever forcing her.

If it’s selfish to want the very best for a dear friend, and later someone you dearly love, then I’d say that’s a pretty justified form of selfishness.

The problem with Nagisa is that she’s too arrogant to even consider that what she wants for him isn’t what’s best for him. It never occurs to her that she might be lacking information. It never occurs to her that she might actually be wrong. I said myself that it doesn’t really matter whether she’s right or wrong, and that’s true. But the fact that she’d rather force Tomoya into doing what she wants against his will than even consider that she’s in the wrong shows an arrogance that astounds me.

I think characterizing Nagisa as weak while also characterizing her as pushy is kind of an interesting thought process.

Unlike Takafumi, the reason I think this about her is that she’s weak when it comes to herself but pushy when it comes to others. She has no problems forcing Tomoya into doing what she wants, but can’t do anything on her own herself.

In summary, the reason I hate Nagisa is her utter unwillingness to back down when it comes to someone else’s life, despite how little she knows about the situation or if it’s against their wishes.

[BlackHayate02]

I just realized something: rather than what has been discussed lately, Nagisa reads to me as someone who’s altruistic to the point of recklessness. I got this exactly from here:

she’s weak when it comes to herself but pushy when it comes to others

I personally read this as her being easily worried over other people’s problems while deliberately dismissive of her own problems because she doesn’t think they’re worth worrying over – not because she’s full of herself, but rather because she thinks she doesn’t really deserve other people’s worries. That’s why it’s so easy for her to throw herself into harm out of desire to help someone.

That self-deprecating altruism manifests just about everywhere:

• Regarding the basketball scene, I don’t think she was deliberately guilt-tripping as much as she really just doesn’t give a single shit about her health.
• That’s not the only instance. She was at some point willing to give away the chance of getting an adviser to another aspiring club because she doesn’t think her goal of becoming a theatre actor is as valuable as that person’s dream (despite this person treating her like shit not too long ago).
• She broke down on stage while acting because she couldn’t fathom how anyone would sacrifice their dreams for hers – her being a recklessly altruistic person, having someone sacrifice hugely for her sake is too much for her. (Honestly, I know how physically painful this feels)

Still, I do think you are justified in your disdain towards this girl, because it’s just generally easy to read an altruistic person as arrogant even in real life (and people like the one you just described do exist). I just wrote this to offer some perspective.

Anyway, I do like Nagisa, but she’s not really best girl (that award goes to Kyou btw). The story does give her an opportunity to think of herself more positively, but she remained reckless until the end, unfortunately.