CLANNAD - Common Route Discussion

Key Discussion
#61

Hello everyone, I’m almost done with the baseball route now and I really like how we are being introduced to every characters without going too deep, however, I get the general feeling that we are playing a complete jerk.

Beyond the fact that he is skipping school and mocking the teachers, Tomoya is really harsh towards everyone. For examples: He makes his class rep cry and shames her after she tries being considerate and bring him the morning’s handout. He meets a random girl in a classroom for the first time and decides to confiscate the knife she’s using to carve wood, for no apparent reasons. He encourages his only friend to go harass the same girl everyday just to see him being beaten up. And finally, he abandons a classmate’s pet on the way home and still accept the payment (juice) she promised him after he completed the job. There are also other examples, but I thin this many is enough to make my point.

Even though there seem to be interesting characters all around Tomoya, and even with the mysterious dreams that I can’t wait to learn about, I feel no sympathy towards the main character because of how he is treating everyone, and that is a great thing. Tomoya is a really well written character in my opinion. I believe he will open up at some point and hope we will learn more about his “nicer” side, but for the moment I can only qualify him of “human”. He is a human being, an asshole, sure, but not only a stereotypical character which is not that common in anime and visual novels in general. Of course he mimics some common archetypes, it is really rare to stumble onto a perfectly human character, but Tomoya distinguish himself in that regard.

Now Regarding Sunohara. I really dislike him. I understand that he is supposed to make the story more light hearted and easy going, but I he is too obviously written that way. He has some good moments, and he certainly is not bland. But he follows the “comic” archetype too much, which makes him less interesting to me as a character. As for his role in Clannad as a whole, I believe he is supposed to maintain a “light” atmosphere on this route during which we meet the others characters, to contrast with the darker themes to come. I say it again, this is my first reading of this Visual Novel, so I could be wrong about what is following. However, from what I know about Clannad, and from what I read so far, my only conclusion is that Sunohara’s only purpose in the whole story is to provide a route that is not too emotional for the reader in which he will learn a bit about every other character before choosing which one to get emotionally involved with. To summarize, I think the route was educative, but I really hope the others develop more interesting characters, because Sunohara’s route leaves me with no emotional attachment to him at all.

Regarding the other characters. I cannot really tell at the moment. Other than Sunohara, we have not really investigated any characters’s personality in debt yet, so I do not feel like I have the proper knowledge to discuss it just yet, but I intent to talk about my observations after future readings.

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#62

It’s funny because a number of posts above there’s been talk about how nice of a guy Tomoya really is ^^ I’d say he’s just really blunt about what he’s thinking and doesn’t pretend to be interested in something if he’s not. But he’s a pretty nice guy overall.

Tomoya actually gives his reasoning. Fuko accidently cuts her hands a lot while using the knife and refuses to treat her wounds or be more careful. So he confiscates her knife to prevent her from hurting herself all the time.

But either way I did go for Nagisa’s route first which may have colored my first re-impression of him a bit. We’ll see as we go. (@Podcasters I’d love if you discussed this in greater detail; is Tomoya more of a jerk or more of a nice guy?)

Btw if I had to guess you read the Sunohara Bad End in the common route. That’s not his actual route. His actual route he shares with his sister, so you do get a more in-depth look at him later on.

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#63

Because she’s cutting herself with it accidentally so he took it as to stop her injuries. In short, the opposite.

If you count not making a huge effort to stop him as encouraging, I suppose.

Kyou is a violent person, not accepting juice would be telling her he lost Botan, assuring him her ire.

I mean Tomoya is a dickhead all fine and dandy, but these are not the best examples of that at all!

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#64

I thought the juice was a reward for helping the victim of Kyou’s shamelessly bad driving?

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#66

It was. Lunch was the reward for Botan which he did turn down.

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#67

One thing I enjoyed so far is listening to Yoshino give his infamous talk to a falsely accusing man on April 20th.

[spoiler]People hurt others constantly in their day-to-day life.
However, there’s nothing sadder than coming to a point where you can’t believe in anything at all.

To no longer be able to believe anyone… that would be the same as losing the ability to feel other people’s love.

It would be the same as becoming completely alone.[/spoiler]

It was a good reminder of how important it is to believe.

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#68

That’s basically theft. He does not know her, and apparently does not care about anyone, so its really out of character. I understand he has good intention, but he has no right to take her belonging without her consent. It’s not right top just go to some random person you do not know and take away their possession. Just imagine this happening in real life. Example, you smash your finger with a hammer while building a deck, and this guy comes out of nowhere, take your hammer and apply pressure on your finger to prove it’s painful. Then he leaves with your hammer while you’re complaining leaving you there dumbfounded

#69

Analogy kind of doesn’t apply to a little girl clumsily working on a frivolous project and hurting herself in the process lol

#70

Hmmm, I never thought about this, but I guess it might happen like (other CLANNAD route) in Tomoyo’s route. You know, Tomoyo goes away, and he goes to his old self pretty much. He loses all motivation, goes back to spending all his time lazing around with Sunohara. He isnt truly changed until Tomoyo comes back again.

I guess this really shows a important aspect of Tomoya as a character. In order to be truly happy and fulfilled, he needs not only to help and support other people, he needs them to support him as well. Wow, sounds almost like, you know… a real person. Never forget what a great character Tomoya is.

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#71

At least he had one nice high school memory, just like Yoshino said :smile:

#72

I think this opinion comes from you walling yourself into this view that Tomoya is a jerk, which I dont really think he is. He’s a senior in highschool who hates his life because as far as he can remember, no one has ever done anything to support him like family. So he just doesnt care. He goes to school because its the law. He interacts with people because they interact with him. He’s not purposefully being mean to people, he just sees no reward in caring enough about them to not accidentally offend them.

Or at least, that’s who he tells himself he is. As you will easily see when you’re not purposefully avoiding every character’s routes, Tomoya doesnt actually wants to be alone. As I just said, in my post above, he wants to help people, and he really really wants some kind of support.

[quote=“DMB, post:68, topic:2037”]
I understand he has good intention, but he has no right to take her belonging without her consent. It’s not right top just go to some random person you do not know and take away their possession.
[/quote]You may or may not have realized this, but Tomoya thinks of Fuuko as a child. At the very most she must be a first year, because of the color of the crest on her jacket. Tomoya, being her senior, probably feels like he should be guiding her. So the hammer analogy doesnt really work. Unless it was a younger girl who was clearly injuring herself with said hammer. Besides, a knife is more dangerous: one slip and you cut your finger off.

[quote=“DMB, post:61, topic:2037”]
Now Regarding Sunohara. I really dislike him.
[/quote]Sunohara is really Key’s first “bro” character. I guess Yukito was a bro too, but he’s also the protagonist, so he cant really count. Later characters I would put in this category are the like of Masato and Hinata. They’re there to lighten the mood, sure, but they also always have your back, no matter what. Perhaps you’ll come to agree with me more as you continue to read.

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#73

How do you think Tomoya’s troubled relationship with his father, and the absence of his mother, affects his relationships with other people?

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#74

@Josef_Hare Very good question. I hope this answer will shed some light to your understanding.

That’s just it. Tomoya is handling the situation in such a way where it does not affect his relationship with other people. His father is in an emotionally dependent state. Tomoya, knows that if he stays at home, he will become trapped in a cycle with him, unable to grow, and it would keep Tomoya from being himself.

By staying away from home, he is essentially chosen not to take up the responsibility of his father. A burden he, as a teenager, should not have to take up by himself. It would become a co-dependent relationship.

Also, if he were to take on the responsibility of his dad, he would be denying himself. He would begin to doubt himself as a person and would start seeking justification and acceptance from other peers for his self-sacrificing actions. There is a character in this VN that we already see who does self-sacrifice; that is Sonohara.

This alleviation of pressure to be responsible for his father serves a purpose for his relationship with others. This allows him to think in a clear empathetic view rather than a self-centered view. Tomoya recognizes how attachment can ruin a person, and at the same time, recognize what it means to live in someone else’s shoes. Tomoya learns perception because of his experiences with his family and it plays an important role for him when trying to work out problems he has with Nagisa and other characters. For instance, when Nagisa stood out in the rain, Tomoya sensed extra tension in the way of their relationship, but it was because he was himself, he was able to see Nagisa’s perspective and be sympathetic rather than regretful for his actions.

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#75

I like what you said about Tomoya learning perception and empathy from living with a troubed father, I’ve never thought of it like that before and I think it is a very important point. Tomoya is the perfect person to be sent down these many routes as he really is a very empathetic character at his core, pretty much every route is Tomoya becoming close to someone, growing fond of them and then learning of their private pain. He doesn’t really do anything to solve people’s problems other than just being there for them, and that is often all these people need.

However I would disagree with the idea that Tomoya is able to handle the situation with his father in a way that does not affect his relationship with other people. I could go broad and just talk about how everybody is affected by their relationship with their parents no matter how well they handle it, but to be specific to Tomoya’s character it is made clear in the vn that he is tortured every day by his father’s inability to connect, I can’t honestly believe that living with the stress and pain of this does not at all affect his behaviour or the way he interacts with others.

I think that Tomoya is initially attracted to Nagisa because he sees in her someone who feels rejected and alone. Nagisa feels this way because of the way her peers have treated her, but Tomoya gets this feeling from his father. To me this is made clear in a Naigsa-focused common route.

clannadbookclub1.png1092×614 786 KB

From these lines it is evident that Tomoya not only feels detached from his father, but also from the rest of humanity in general. In my view, the troubled relationship he has with his father makes Tomoya feel unlovable. And through his connection with Nagisa (and other girls, in other routes) he finally starts to feel that somebody really could love him.

There is a line, not far after the passage I posted above, where Tomoya refers to himself and Nagisa as “Unimportant and unnoticeable”. He sees his own loneliness in her, which I think also explains why he was so shocked when he finds out that Nagisa has a kind, loving family.

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#76

Don’t forget that merely being a “delinquent” is already enough to make others not want to associate with him. And the fact that he’s in this school where everyone is serious as hell about studying should also be a significant part of his initial solitude.

#77

You have no idea how much that resonated with me personally.

In all honesty, that is all he and many other people, real of fictional, need. They just need someone to love and to be loved by someone else.

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#78

Which, again, is a direct result of his relationship with his father. He wouldn’t feel any need to go to bed late and get up late if he wasn’t worried about seeing his father. Looking at it like this, his father forced him to become a delinquent.

EDIT: Baseball route done. And another hinonie-frog spotted!

Frog.png1024×768 952 KB

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#79

Exactly, if someone came up to you in said, “not a single person says hello to me,” you’d instantly think their motive is to gain pity from you. But what you quoted is a monologue. He is saying that to himself. At the end of the monologue Tomoya states, " Will things ever change?" The only way someone would ask such a question is if they were looking for a way out. You see, Tomoya is looking for a way out of his predicament. The answer he found was to avoid contact with his father.

There are explicit scenes that show how Tomoya is affected by the relationship he has with his father. In the common route, Tomoya starts helping Nagisa feel better by making dangos. It is important to see Tomoya’s motive for making dangos in this scene. Tomoya chose, with his own time, to purchase, assemble and, paint dangos for Nagisa. If Tomoya’s father wasn’t blinded by his own pain for bonding, he would have seen that Tomoya needed to do this task alone. Tomoya was making a choice to help by something only he could do. When his father asked if he could help, not only was it a selfish request by his father, it would have caused Tomoya’s motive to helping Nagisa into something that helped bond his Father and him together. Tomoya would realize that his intention was not out of care and concern for nagisa, instead it would be out of care and concern for his dad. Anyways,This would make Tomoya regretful of his choice and possibly cause concerns in the relationship with Nagisa and other characters. One last point, Tomoya states in the Visual Novel that he cannot stay at home because he would be denying himself as a person. This is a huge indicator to me that supports the claims I was making previously.

The reason why Tomoya is the perfect person to understand people is because he has gone through a traumatic experience that most kids/teenagers may not have gone through. It caused him to grow up and accepted the social realities of life. He has embraced his reality, his shortcomings, his weaknesses, and his current, “place,” in his life.

Yes, for the first time he started to feel like he could be loved. That was the beginning of his long uphill climb. And all the events followed after that explicitly show how Tomoya managed to make his life work for him rather than the other way around.

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#81

I agree with all that. Tomoya refuses to stay home because he is scared of becoming consumed with trying to repair his broken relationship with his father. That’s a smart point, I’d never seen it like that before. But this…

…is where I have to draw the line. Tomoya’s decision to keep away from his dad is probably an effective countermeasure against something that could truly be a destructive force in his life if he was to let it. But it’s not that simple, he hasn’t slain the dragon in his mind, he just keeps it on a leash. Sometimes that’s all someone can do, but it’s still there, it’s still something he has to live with, and if it wasn’t for this particular dragon Tomoya wouldn’t feel inherently lonely, his self-esteem would be much higher, he wouldn’t think of himself as lazy and useless and unimportant, and his social standing would be totally different.

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#82

You make a great point, he probably wouldn’t. Tomoya would be a completely different character if the, “dragon” or inner demon was slain, never existed. Right? Unfortunately, if that were the case, we’d had ourselves a different story. One completely different than the emotional journey we call Clannad. It is Tomya’s circumstance that drives this story.

One thing I overlooked is that there are negative choices that may reflect a negative low self-esteem and self loathing attitude. My bias comes from the Anime and after story.

The choices I find myself making have been based off of the anime. From this point of view, Tomoya’s interaction with other characters seems very stable, especially compared side by side to Sonohara. I can see that he does have a good sense of self-esteem. It stems from his ability to appropriately acknowledge and assess his own needs as well as other peoples boundaries. He doesn’t invade personal space. Just like all the other posts have suggested before this one, he just helps them. You cannot help someone take out the thorn in their heart if you haven’t taken the time to take out your own. I believe that thorn to be Tomoya’s circumstances.

Tomoya’s dad is a prime example of this, he is too blinded by his own thorn to help Tomoya.

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