Are Visual Novels Games? Discussion

I’m fine with that, but can you elaborate? Do you disagree with that being the only reason? Or with the general idea that what I said could be at least part of the reason why VNs could be considered games? If not, how do you think can sharing a medium not at least play into why people might consider it games.

In hindsind, I actually see an oversight in my wording. I think sharing a medium is probably what started the discussion (not here, but in general), rather than it actually bein the only reason nowadays, because if you think about it (see: rest of the thread) there are a lot of reasons why it could be considered.

I disagree with it being in anyway important and I disagree with it being much of a reason at all, at least in the sense of ‘apps’ and ‘installing.’ Your examples are strange, and they’re such a minute portion of what a VN is, it’s hardly important. To say the method you take to run a VN is more important in the zeitgeist than the question of if the reading of a VN constitutes gameplay is… ridiculous. If your assumption was true, VNs would be considered DVDs more than games in my opinion, as they run much more similarly to DVDs. They can have the menu, they can have the fast forward and jump back features, they can have the extras menu, they can have a scene selection feature, and the idea of inserting a disc to access the material is much more relatable to a DVD than a modern PC game.
I say that, but it’s because the focus of your comment is off. Such an idea could be true if you aged it back 30 or so years and compared the medium with the content being put out on the time’s platforms (such as the PC88, the MSX, and of course the Famicom) as well as looking at the material of the VNs, because there’s a very blatant reason for why VNs were initially video games, and it did involve the platform.

As I’ve said previously in this topic, the initial reason for defining VNs as games was the inherent fail-states. Several other factors include: The popularity of VN-style cutscenes, the reliance on immersion and ‘problem solving’, and the obvious comparisons with already-popular gamebooks. The big daddy of factors however was in the origin.
Japan is renowned for being a mystery-novel loving country, and that’s very apparent in Visual Novels; the original market was driven by first-person problem solving, much like the point-and-click gaming that would come to rise. This text-based storytelling of interactive fiction was known as the adventure game, and included classic titles such as On-Line’s Mystery House and Softporn Adventure. Sometimes they would have visuals, sometimes they would have sound, and sometimes they would lack both of those things. In a world of arcadey puzzle games and old school JRPGs, the adventure game was the video game genre for readers. The simple idea of writing a story that would cause the reader to solve problems was enough to consider it a ‘game’ but the addition of meaningful interaction with consequences really sealed the deal.

And so, as technology advanced, adventure as a genre became more about digitally-rendered 3D worlds and relied less on presenting every line of text… But just because the genre changed, it doesn’t mean the original ‘adventure game’ concept was lost, and so it became multiple distinctive genres such as the ‘Visual Novel’. They were considered video games because they were an establishing force of video games.
However Visual Novels progressed, and now we have things like Key’s ‘Kinetic Novel’ where there is no interaction… and we also have hybrids that are more reliant on a core gameplay loop than the average VN. But because the core experience of reading was so similar, these non-video games such as Kinetic Novels simply became a subcategory of Visual Novels, which is what brought the validity of the Visual Novel as a game to question. It’s a matter where two labels of convenience go against each other.
Since the initial conception of VNs (where this question didn’t even exist) there hasn’t been any moment of “well they boot up the same way” to validate VNs as video games in my opinion, hence my disagreement. It’s not a valid thought in the zeitgeist. There’s very little “I run them like an app so they’re a game” unless you go back to before the term “Visual Novel” was even a thing. It’s too modern a thought. These questions didn’t even exist until a type of storytelling was mis-categorized by the masses as a subcategory of Visual Novels.

Anime is on steam. They share a medium. DVDs have many of the same mechanical features of a VN, they share a format. No one questions if these things are games because there’s no defined fail state and nothing in the way of meaningful interaction within them. They don’t have gameplay, and that’s the signature motif of this discussion; whether people consider the reading of an interactive piece of text ‘gameplay’ or not is what causes this exact discussion.

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Thank you! You noted down a lot of parts of VN history I was not aware of, and you’re right. Especially considering that a bit of gameplay was more common back then.

That’s not what I meant however. If it was more important, the discussion would not happen, it would be an immediate “they are games”. I personally do watch more for the content. Before I was informed by your post I was however thinking that it was what started people even thinking about wether it is a game or not. I do see now that I was wrong anyways though.

The checklist mentality is horridly flawed, it is a simple matter of opinion, fun or not fun. Fun = game, not fun = not game. Fail states, choices that doesn’t matter. When you take a test it has a fail state and choices doesn’t mean it is a game though lol. See the first check your brain dose is it fun? If it fails that you don’t even care about those rest of the things. So what is wrong with just thinking like that?

There is too much perspective involved. One mans game is a another mans tool. The developer and the player are the two who say if it is a game or not, but that is still opinion based. There is a reason why words like kinetic visual novel exist it is to give more information to just saying it is just a game or a “book” Why do we need to define a vague as hell word when you can just use more words. Don’t call it a book don’t call it game call it a kinetic visual novel.

The problem really is there are these smart kid types, who hand you a tomato when you said you wanted a fruit. They got to be “technically right” After all a game like Proteus is a “rule breaker” People where defining it as a toy… as art, as a “musical instrument” yeah I have no idea wtf that “game” was either. Kinetic vns get thrown into that “rule breaker” list too. Truth is “Game” means something different to everyone really since it is such a vague word.

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…Books are fun too.

And they’re not games.

That’s a stupid example.

I think you’re trying to analyse the mindset much more deeply than it’s worth and your point stands on really nothing. The perception of game vs. novel does depend on the individual and their view on the matter of what they classify certain material, but trying to advocate that it’s almost a marketing branding is a bit missing the point of the topic while calling out on unknown “smart kids”.

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Oh yeah I do realize most don’t consider books as games, but when you get into the rule breaking books like where’s waldo/wally suddenly that line of thinking comes crashing down… lets face it you can’t define vague words by simply saying books are not games. You need to remember that Dungeons and dragons is a book… and a game. All of this logic assumes that books are not games when they can be a game. If books can be games then kinetic novels can in fact somehow become games with “rule breaking” The line gets so blurry when you get to the unusual ones.The reason why books and vns blur so much is because they are so close together and so vaguely defined.

Vague words leads to nonsense. The fact is, you can have a million rules to define “game” but it still boils down to one simple “rule breaker” to screw all the logic up and make it “opinion”

Takafumi raised good points, but at the end of the day I feel like it boils down to "does origin matter’? It may help you reach a decision but at the end of it all it is still… a decision. The funny thing is people call vns “anime” all the time. Is this a case of “tomato is a fruit” thing? I think so. Sure it isn’t technically “anime” but I can see where they are coming from. Just type anime into steam…

So considering I haven’t had fun with a new game since 2012, would that mean there haven’t been any games released since then?

So long as your ‘test’ means quiz, then they are games. That’s why they are implemented so commonly in schools, because they have a very defined and rewarding gameplay loop compared to traditional learning methods.

Because it’s a brand, right? Running through the Kinetic branch of reallive.

Those are puzzle books, which yes, are games. They aren’t video games obviously, but they are games.

No, because the entire concept of the Kinetic brand is that they aren’t games. They don’t have inputs or challenges, they are just something to be read. Saying such a thing is assuming that all books can be defined as games, which they can’t. Only the books with gameplay are considered games.

Which, in my opinion, is a very important thing. I don’t know that it has much relevance in this exact topic, but there are other words that exist purely as a marker of origin.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen that. I’ve seen people call anime ‘manga’ before, but never VNs as ‘anime’ or vice versa.

WAAAAIIT wait wait wait. Anime is just a tag; it exists to define that typically expected ‘anime’ style for those who specifically want to avoid or look for it. Some Visual Novels will have the anime tag for obvious reasons, but other VNs won’t. There is nothing to be said about anime = VNs.

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I am not sure if you missed that part where I said that the dev and players are a big factor too… I mean kinetic is a brand like you said a game company brand… so that uh tells us a lot right? That is why random books aren’t games cause the publisher doesn’t declare themselves as game makers or the product as a game… But yet there are still people yelling at them saying it isn’t a game for X Y and Z. That is cuase you can’t give origin all the power. I don’t know if this is actually true or not but I heard there is a game on steam that just opens notepad with a bunch of text… okay that is pushing your luck there buddy. That is a extreme example but everyone has different views on it. Some people think of visual novels just like that “a bunch of text.”

Then there is this nonsense with the anime definition used in two different ways. Okay yeah so according to you castlevania is a anime since it is “anime style” lol nope. Once you add castlevania to mal then I’ll say you are right. I was pointing the steam tag out because it is literal shit tag with little meaning. People try to give it meaning but it becomes a muddy mess since they aren’t using it right.

You would agree that “quiz game” and test is a blurry line at times right? That is why checklist doesn’t work too well. All these things are blurred together. Hence the need to have fun as a factor. Where does the test end and the “quiz game” begin? imo it starts with fun.

edit: side tracking aside it is quite simple is mario a game? yes it is made from a game company it was made to be a game and everyone thinks it is a game, The game was made to be played… the reason they play it is to have fun. The goal was to cause people to have fun… Even if somebody hates the game they tried to have fun but didn’t…

Well no, random books aren’t… But game books are.

Firstly, the publisher often isn’t the creator anyway. Secondly, it doesn’t really matter what the creator defines the product as, because at the end of the day every word is just an agreed upon concept, and as such if the random art book of Where’s Wally? is seen as a puzzle/challenge book to the masses, it is a game. It may not have been intended as something comparable to solitaire or jigsaw puzzles, but it is.
Also going by your proposed method of defining a game, any creator could deem their product as a game even if it had no gameplay elements.

Did a quick search. Closest I could find on the Steam store is a movie named ‘Jäsøn’, and it is essentially just pre-release crowdfunding for the eventual series.

This is a completely different topic, and you’ve completely misunderstood what I said.
There is no such thing as an “anime style” or at least there isn’t in a strict sense. There is simply an agreed upon set of traits that define it as a tag to categorize Steam releases under. I never said that Castlevania was an anime, or even mentioned anime as a medium. I only spoke about the ‘anime’ tag on Steam, which exists purely to categorize game presentation.

But it has meaning. I don’t buy games often, but when I do, it’s almost always something featuring the anime tag. I’m more likely to search for that specific categorization than search by genre or by any of the other tags. As I said before, there are also people who strongly dislike ‘anime’ and so will find the tag helpful as something to avoid, in the same way I’d avoid the ‘difficult’ or ‘open world’ tags.

There is no blurry line; quizzes are a form of test. All quizzes are tests. The term “test” is in reference to a wide range of things, which includes various types of games alongside various types of non-games.

Having fun as a factor is ridiculous, because as I previously mentioned, someone like me who just doesn’t like games would completely screw over the definition of game. I can’t claim that Final Fantasy or Mario (even though they are trash) aren’t games.